User talk:Achmedpurple

Old commentary see history Achmedpurple (talk) 06:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Experimental film and Douglass Crockwell

Can you add a source for this addition to the article? I tried using Sitney's "Visionary Film" but he isn't in the index. AllyD (talk) 08:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't have a reference offhand. There is a video of his work on Vimeo where someone had created a soundtrack for Glen Falls Sequence. AskArt lists 18 book references pertaining to his work, but they may be all about his illustration. I'm in Australia too so there aren't too many reference books on the American artists not everyone has heard of, but I will see what I can find on the web. Achmedpurple (talk) 08:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see another user added a reference during today. I hadn't encountered this film-maker - interesting. AllyD (talk) 19:14, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great! If I find another reference I will add it as well. Achmedpurple (talk) 01:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jean Isherwood

I noted your changes, and want to point out that what is related there is not about what was in vogue in the art market. It is about what was going on at the time in the National Art School. The conflict was extraordinary. On one hand the National Art School held classes in life drawing, object drawing and portrait painting. The drawing teachers were superbly competent, as was at least one of the design teachers. But when a student walked out of those classes, they were expected to leave behind anything formal that they might have learnt. To a student who wanted to paint portraits that were likenesses, landscape that resembled the view or a work of "design" that was representational, then the situation was nightmarish. A work produced for a "Composition" or "Design" class could be failed or receive a bare pass, simply on the grounds of being "too representational", and without consideration of whether it adequately filled the criteria of the exercise. Abstract was in, everything else was out. Your edits implied that Jean was at odds with the whole Australian art scene of the time. This was not the case. But she was very much at odds with the ethos in art teaching and the extraordinarily lax attitudes that it produced in the teachers. "Freedom of Expression" was the thing. It generated teachers who walked into their class, set up an easel, painted for a couple of hours, and walked out without having looked at the students' work unless actually requested to. Drawing teachers could get away with setting up a model and then disappearing and listening to a sporting match on their tranny in the staff room.

Re Hard Edge Abstraction, it didn't hit Australia until 1967-8, as a result of the exhibition of contemporary American painting which showed at the AGNSW. That was a real eye-opener. I think hard edge took off in Melbourne rather than Sydney. I spose it was happening at the National Art School by the time Jean stopped work in 1974. I remember a Dutch house painter from Darlinghurst who gave up his day job to paint hard edge abstractions in the early 80s but I can't recall his name. Amandajm (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken. What was in vogue in the market and the contemporary at scene at that time was not necessarily what was in vogue in art school teaching. Sydney had Central Street Gallery and that was a hub of hard edge painting in Australia. I believe James Doolin, who was painting in the hard edge "Manhattan" style, didn't have much luck in Melbourne but got a little favourable attention in Sydney thanks to Tony McGillick. Achmedpurple (talk) 17:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I remember James Doolin, now that you remind me. He did some beautiful stuff.

The abstract painting that I enjoyed most at that time was Leonard French's highly symbolic, richly textured and glazed painting. He had an exhibition at the David Jones Art Gallery inspired by a stay in Greece. He taught me more abut how to lay paint on canvas than anyone since Rembrandt. Amandajm (talk) 03:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Leonard French is very well recognised. His work can look a bit like Marsden Hartley's, so to me he was another of the prestigious Australian artists whose work echoed what was happening in American art generations eariler. But that's interesting that he taught students about technique rather than wandering off to the staff room without even looking at student's work. I find Jean's work interesting because her watercolours were in the tradition of American Impressionists like Charles Reiffel and Janet Fish, very interested in the reflections of light. Very beautiful. Achmedpurple (talk) 04:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, don't get me wrong. French didn;t teach me personally. I simply learnt from him. Nobody at the National art school at that time was formally teaching students about underpainting and glazing techniques. Not that I came across, anyway. The younger staff members didn't seem to know what you were talking about.

Leonard French's painterly technique was superb- carefully controlled layers and layers of glazing contrasting with areas of pale impasto giving the surface richness and depth superior to Marsden Hartley, despite the similar bright colours and geometric designs. French's stuff has to be gazed into, like the gorgeous ox-blood or celadon glaze on a Chines pot. Amandajm (talk) 08:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I often wondered what the appeal of Leonard French's paintings was.Achmedpurple (talk) 10:05, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 02:08, 23 May 2011 (UTC) If the image is public domain and I blur out the faces then I'm not the author of the image but there is not option for that, or maybe I'm missing the point. Achmedpurple (talk) 03:40, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Australian mid-century modern painters

Which century does Category:Australian mid-century modern painters cover? It could easily be 19th or 20th. I suggest renaming the category to be more specific. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming the category to 20th century would be more accurate, although mid century modern (MCM) commonly refers to the original Mid-century modern design, while mid century art is commonly used to refer to artists working from the circa 1945 - 1970, although the alternative "Post War" is also not specific. Achmedpurple (talk) 05:36, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Australian mid- 20th century modern painters

A tag has been placed on Category:Australian mid- 20th century modern painters indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:28, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Australian mid-century modern painters

A tag has been placed on Category:Australian mid-century modern painters indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Visual artists ... late 20th Century Australia

Re [1] and similar - I suggest that it might be better to:

wait for the speedy rename of Category:Visual artists and innovation in late 20th Century Australia to be done

and/or

suggest a different new name for that category, at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy#Current_requests

and let the speedy rename process handle the moving of the articles from one cat to another Otherwise it just gets confusing all round. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:46, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do I need to request a new category: Category:Visual artists of late 20th Century Australia or can I just create it. The editors seemed pretty prompt about deleting categories that have been emptied. Achmedpurple (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In general, you could create a new category yourself and move articles to it. (Moving them to a non-existent category violates WP:CATREDLINK.) But given that there is a current request to rename Category:Visual artists and innovation in late 20th Century Australia it would be better - to avoid confusion - if you let that process finish before manually moving articles. If you want Category:Visual artists and innovation in late 20th Century Australia renamed to something different (other than just fixing the capitalisation) say so at the speed-request entry. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:09, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday one of the editors made a note that the category should not exist. I created another new category without using the word innovation. Many post 1970s artists (world wide) get the Avant Garde tag and its misleading. Innovative would be more appropriate in an Australian contemporary art context. Category:Visual artists of late 20th Century Australia is a more catch all term that can include various formats. Achmedpurple (talk) 01:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note that you have recently created Category:Visual artists of late 20th Century Australia, so my previous comment about CATREDLINK no longer applies. However the issue exists with the capitalisation - "century" is not a proper noun so ought not be capitalised. Can I suggest that you slow down, think about the correct category, including capitalisation, wait for the speedy rename to occur (or be cancelled), before making any more changes. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. I'll slow down and take your grammar advice. Thanks. Achmedpurple (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also please note when referring to a category in a talk page, please use either insert a colon before the word "category" (like this or use the "cl" template (example), so that this page does not go into the category. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:39, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per Smasongarrison's comment [2] at WP:CFDS, "artists in Australia" are not necessarily "Australian artists, so my changes [3] [4] are incorrect. Is the intent that Category:Visual artists in early 20th century Australia and Category:Visual artists in late 20th-century Australia include "artists (who are not necessarily Australian) in Australia", or is it intended to include "Australian artists (who might not be in Australia)"? If the former, the parent cats needs to change; if the latter, the categories should be renamed. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it includes artists who were born overseas (nation of migrants) and may or may not have Australian citizenship, also Australian born artists who worked in Australia at some stage, then lived overseas, such as Vali Myers or Ron Muek. Achmedpurple (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, based on that I've remove the supercategory "... Australian artists" [5]. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Because then Christo can be included in the listing and where would Australian art history be without the wrapping of Little Bay. Achmedpurple (talk) 05:48, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok that's helpful. So then you'd want in Austrialia, as you're referring to the country in which the art is happening, rather than. I also recommend looking at how other categories use the terms you're interested in for your category, as most categories don't slice up centuries into mid, early, and late. Mason (talk) 00:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Words such as modern and contemporary are being reclaimed by artists working today. Art Gallery of NSW recently built a new wing and called it Sydney Modern. Using time periods is less confusing. Early twentieth century art in was generally traditionalist, Australians were suspicious of European modern art and its influence. There were the early moderns that the institutions love to show in exhibitions such as Misty Moderns. No point in calling it the early modern era because artists like Arthur Streeton and Norman Lindsay were still prominent, it wasn't all about modernist Margaret Preston. Modern art styles took off belatedly in Australia. The influences of European abstraction, expression, cubism, surrealism, post-impressionism, abstract expressionism were felt a generation or two after the stylistic development. It happened across the country and not just Heide in Melbourne. Australian artists didn't help create any new international styles, except maybe Martin Lewis, John Peter Russell. There's an Australiana style of outback landscape painting that started with Sidney Nolan and Russell Drysdale that influenced Pro Hart and Jacqueline Hick, those artists were infuenced by what was happening in American modernism and British modernism. There were two main genres of art in Australia at this time: Painting or Sculpture. Art Deco caught on pretty quickly in Australia.

1968: National Gallery of Victoria held the field. It was all about high modernism hard edged painting that was called international style. Phillipines and Brazil had the same idea for art. Also Australians were pretty up to speed with what pop art was Then in the 80s and 90s there was a return to narrative art that had a bit of the Russell Drysdale Australiana about it but it was supposed to be more sophisticated and evolved. There was photomedia illustration, performance, body art as well.

So that is why it is generally accepted that twentieth century art in Australia happened in three acts. Early: A reactionary cultural scene that wanted pastoral landscapes but a few pioneer modernists. Mid: the era of lets have an Australiana version of surrealism, abstract expressionism, expressionism. Late: postmodern narratives, diversity of styles, traversing borders. Late twentieth century art in Australia was more closely aligned to the mass media, the seventies brought a renaissance in Australian film, Mad Max is an example. Publishing ventures specializing in post structural thought, postmodern thinkers like art + text also influenced the practice of some contemporary art. And there were crossovers to contemporary fashion prints like Florence Broadhurst, Linda Jackson, Ken Done and Reg Mombassa. Boundary breaking defined the era and made it separate from the Mid century modern era. Achmedpurple (talk) 01:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ok... so all of that is nice information. BUT you're missing my point. none of that is relevant to category structures for centuries. That information is relevant for ART movements. You can nest art movements into this sctruture, but that is not how the century categories are strutured. Mason (talk) 03:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Then they should have category tags at least for America. New York became the global center of art in the MIDDLE of the twentieth century because of Abstract Expressionism. You can have multiple categories, one for all artists who worked in America in the twentieth century and more nuanced categories of early, middle and late. If you're suggesting Andy Warhol is the same era of artist as an artist who had their first exhibition in 1995 you sound ignorant and need to open your mind to "nice" ( as you call it) information. Name some countries that were making the same art at the beginning of the twentieth century as they were at the end of the century. Achmedpurple (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me... I'm am engaging with you in good faith, encouraging you to look at how categories work for naming conventions. And you call me ignorant and closed minded? Mason (talk) 03:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well I don't know how you think generally but you sounded rather dismissive before. Achmedpurple (talk) 03:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

None of your information was RELEVANT to category naming conventions for centuries. And none of that justifies insulting someone who *was* trying to help you. Mason (talk) 03:59, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My advice is to slow down. Listen to the please trying to help you, and don't insult them by calling them ignorant. Mason (talk) 04:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mitch Ames: Maybe you'll have better luck. But I'm going to unsubscribe from this conversation as Achmedpurple doesn't seem to be willing to slow down or assume good faith. Mason (talk) 04:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I called you ignorant. I see now that you were being helpful. Achmedpurple (talk) 04:16, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at an artist like Jasper Johns he is sub-categorized as an American pop artist. It seems to be the convention that an artist can be tagged as both a twentieth century artist and a pop artist. Is that a problem as well. Sorry for the curt reply before. Achmedpurple (talk) 04:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've requested [6] [7] a speedy rename of Category:Visual artists in early 20th century Australia to hyphenate "... 20th-century ..." for consistency with existing Wikipedia practice. To avoid further confusion and edit conflicts, please do not touch that category until the rename has happened ("may take 48 hours to process after listing if there are no objections"). If you disagree with the rename, please discuss at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Speedy#Current_requests, per the normal CfD process. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion of Category:Visual artists of late 20th Century Australia

The page Category:Visual artists of late 20th Century Australia has been deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under two or more of the criteria for speedy deletion, by which pages can be deleted at any time, without discussion. As the page met any of these strictly-defined criteria, it was deleted by an administrator. The reasons it has been deleted are:

The category had been empty for seven days or more and it was not presently under discussion at Categories for discussion, or at disambiguation categories. (See section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Visual artists and innovation in late 20th-century Australia

A tag has been placed on Category:Visual artists and innovation in late 20th-century Australia indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Visual artists in early 20th-century Australia has been nominated for renaming

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