User talk:Abraham, B.S./Archive 12
 | This is an archive of past discussions with User:Abraham, B.S.. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Clowes rank query
Thanks for your input on Cyril Clowes. Do you think the photo caption should also reflect his final rank, or his rank at the time as it is now? SpoolWhippets (talk) 01:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Nominations for the March 2010 Military history Project Coordinator elections now open!
The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 (UTC) on 8 March 2010! More information on coordinatorship may be found on the coordinator academy course and in the responsibilities section on the coordinator page.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLVIII (February 2010)
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March, as you know, is an election month for our project, when we pick the coordinators for the next six months. We are seeking motivated individuals willing to devote some of their time and energy to the project so it continues to grow and prosper. Also, I am making a personal appeal to each of you, the members of this project, to come out and vote for the candidates that run. These users will be responsible for managing the assessment process, answering questions, and making sure that the project's other needs are met. We have approximately 1,000 users who identify as being a part of our project, yet on average only about one-tenth of that number participate in elections. Moreover, as we typically hold referendums on major issues affecting the project along with these election, those who do not vote miss the opportunity to give their opinion on matters affecting the project as a whole. Remember, one vote always makes a difference. For the coordinators, TomStar81 (Talk) 23:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC) |
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Across Wikipedia, guidelines have been set up so that editors can vet sources for themselves. Links to some of these and a guide for checking if a source is reliable can be found in an excellent Signpost dispatch written by Ealdgyth (talk · contribs). However, for the majority of military history-related topics, we strive for more than just a basic reliable source. Specifically, we aim for peer-reviewed articles and books over, for example, most websites.[N 1] Contemporary news articles or accounts can and should be mixed in (if possible) to give a picture of the general view point of the time—were they calm, afraid, unsure of what was going on? Another major tenet is neutrality. If an editor rewrote the article Dieppe Raid using only the official Canadian history,[N 2] we would have a problem; while it does contain a thorough and in-depth overview, a point-of-view can still be read. For one, it gives an undue amount of focus to Canada's input in the planning of the landing, and it would probably give an undue focus to their troops if a majority of the landing forces hadn't been Canadian. Granted, this is a book written to document that country's role in the Second World War, so you would hope it focuses on them, but this same reason makes it unusable as the primary basis for an article. In this case, you would like to utilize a few recent, peer-reviewed books and journals, the official British, Canadian and German histories, possibly a few books written by historians from the aforementioned countries, and newspapers from that time period.[N 3] Obviously this is ideal, but you need to represent all three sides in this (the United States would be a fourth, but they played only a minor role in the planning and invading). This neutrality aspect applies especially for battles and to a lesser degree biographies, but it can be utilized in virtually every article in our scope. For example, it could be beneficial to obtain Japanese accounts of B-29 Superfortress bombing raids or non-Puerto Rican peer-reviewed sources for that insular area's role in the Second World War. —Ed (talk • majestic titan)
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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Australia Station
Hi Bryce, thought you might be interested in the list of Commanders in Chiefs, Australia Station which I have uploaded within the article. Reference is being posted and have some notes and expansion to add too upon receipt of book via post. Was thinking of adding a list of ships of Australia Station, but may be too large and may warrant own list article. Regards Newm30 (talk) 08:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just to stick my nose in, an article listing the ships assigned to the Australia Station would be fantastic. Nick-D (talk) 09:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the notice, mate! I agree with Nick; a list of ships assigned to the Australia Station would be excellent to have. Though, as you said, it would probably be best to have the list as a separate article in itself. Anyway, nice work! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Drum roll please, it took me ages...................List of ships assigned to the Australia Station as requested. Newm30 (talk) 06:38, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well done, mate! That's excellent! *Applauds* :) Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 12:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Slightly digressing, just created Wilfred Custance Rear Admiral Commanding His Majesty's Australian Squadron. Regards Newm30 (talk) 10:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Question
Hey Bryce,
I was considering running for Coordinator for the Military History WikiProject, but I am not sure. I was very busy in the "real world" during the last elections and did not think I was prepared to devote the time to the WikiProject that it truly deserves. I'm back now and I have started getting involved again. I've always respected your opinion, especially after we served together as coordinators in Tranch VII. I would really appreciate your advice on this. Thanks and Have a Great day! Lord Oliver The Olive Branch 22:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Naming New Pages
Hi Bryce,
Me again. Just trying to determine the best method of naming a new page. Should it be the actual name (eg John Newham) or the widely recognised nickname (eg Jake Newham).
Thanks again. --Oliver Nouther (talk) 22:50, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Finalist - Henry Allingham World War I International Contest (1st edition)
| FINALIST |
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| Congratulations on reaching the finals of the Henry Allingham World War I International Contest Thank you for your great performance and your valuable contributions to the project! |
| 1st edition (11 November 2009 - 11 March 2010) |
| Eurocopter (talk) 17:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC) |
Thanks, Eurocopter! And another thank you and a well done for your organisation and efforts in constructing and monitoring the contest! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Something for you
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The Silver Wiki | |
| Thank you very much, Bryce, for the year you gave the project as a coordinator. I have really enjoyed working with you and have particularly appreciated your sharp mind, keen common sense, and concise but incisive commentaries. I wish you every success at university, though I'm sure you don't need it! Thanks once again for your many valuable contributions. With best wishes, Roger Davies talk 17:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC) PS: I would have given you a Golden Wiki but you've already got one! |
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Just a quick question. Why replace a - with an – ? Is there something special about how a – is used in Wiki?--Oliver Nouther (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Oh yes :) See WP:DASH. Roger Davies talk 14:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, Roger. :) It's more for aesthetic reasons than anything really, but it's what the guidelines dictate! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 03:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Coordinator elections have opened!
Voting for the Military history WikiProject coordinator elections has opened; all users are encouraged to participate in the elections. Voting will conclude 23:59 (UTC) on 28 March 2010.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 21:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Would you mind having a look at Talk:Victoria Cross#Precedence and see if you can provide a better answer than I did? Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you
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The WikiProject Barnstar | |
| In gratitude of your service as a coordinator for the Military history Project from September 2009 to March 2010, I hereby award you this WikiProject Barnstar. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:17, 29 March 2010 (UTC) |
- Thanks, I appreciate it, Tom. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Coordinator election
Thank you for your support MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- Likewise. Just a quick note to thank you for your support at the election, very much appreciated. See you around the Milhist pages! Ranger Steve (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
- You are both most welcome, and I wish you luck! Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you
Thank you very much for your support on the coordinator elections. – Joe N 14:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- Given your experience and having worked with you for the past year, how could I not? :) Good luck with the new tranche, Joe. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:03, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLIX (March 2010)
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I am pleased to report that the March coordinator elections have concluded, and that 15 members have been selected to serve as coordinators from April to September. Special congratulations go to AustralianRupert, Dank, MisterBee1966, NativeForeigner, Patar knight, and Ranger Steve, all of whom are newly elected coordinators. As we start this new tranche we welcome all returning coordinators, and wish those who decided not to stand for reelection luck as they move on to new things. In other election news, a motion made to extend the coordinator tranche from its current six-month term to one full year gained consensus from the election participants. This will take effect in September, during the next election cycle. For the IX Coordinator Tranche, TomStar81 (Talk) 05:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC) |
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I (Ed) am a college student in the United States, and as part of attaining my desired degree, I chose to take a course in Arab-Islamic history. We began in the early 600s and spent some time on the origins of the Islamic conquering of the Sassanid Empire and partial takeover of the Byzantine Empire (c. 634–750). From there, we have moved through the various ages of history, and the class recently began discussing the Ottoman Empire and other Islamic regions of more recent times. As we began discussing the Ottoman Empire's role in the First World War, our professor mentioned that they were blockading the Bosphorus, using it as a chokepoint to cut off needed supplies traveling to Russia's only warm-water port, Sevastopol. An astute classmate, realizing this meant the use of warships, wondered what naval technology was like during this time. The professor turned and asked me to answer the question, as he knew I had been studying naval history and believed that I knew more about the subject. The point of this anecdote is not to boast, but to provoke some thought. By virtue of the research Wikipedia writers must do to write complete, referenced articles, many of us are acquiring knowledge in specialized topics that can surpass even learned scholars. Wikipedia might even provoke some of us into becoming learned scholars through the subjects we find here. To profile one such case, take a look at Parsecboy. Beginning in May 2007, he came across a few essentially empty stubs on German battleship classes. Nearly 3 years later, he's written or collaborated on more than forty articles rated as good or higher, including over a dozen featured articles and a featured list; the majority relate to German warships. The work Parsecboy has done for Wikipedia has had a tremendous impact on his academic career: to complete his undergraduate degree, Parsecboy is currently writing an Honors Thesis that will analyze the British and German battlecruiser squadrons during the First World War. Parsecboy plans to attend graduate school and continue his research in the area, culminating in a dissertation. He comments that "without a doubt, I would not have had nearly as much knowledge and interest in the topic, nor would I have known where to begin researching if I had not become so involved with the topic here on Wikipedia." The knowledge you acquire through writing Wikipedia articles will remain with you for the rest of your life. Try to find a way to use it to your advantage. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) and Parsecboy (talk) | |||
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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 21:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
List of Australian generals and brigadiers
Bowen is (was?) a brigadier. Thanks.
You wouldn't have a supporting reference, or failing that, some more information? (e.g. How/Where did you discover he is/was a brigadier?)
Similar question re BRIG Galleghan and LTGEN Garrett?
Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- There are little mentions on Bowen around in a few different places, mainly in Defence announcements, etc, and last thing I read on him stated he was still in service (though I cannot recall what position he held) and I know he was promoted to brigadier in or before 2006. There is also a chapter devoted to him in Narelle Biedermann's Modern Military Heroes (he was the first military Star of Courage recipient). Bowen is also mentioned on the Australian Defence College page as Commandant, Australian Command and Staff College. Galleghan and Garrett—who was Chief of the General Staff in the 1960s—have articles in the Australian Dictionary of Biography if I recall correctly. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. (Very helpful.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : L (April 2010)
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It's been a month since the end of the coordinator elections, and I am proud to inform the project that the IX coordinator tranche is doing well. Our new coordinators are rapidly learning the ropes, and the last of the task forces under consideration for merging have been consolidated into a new task force which should increase productivity and improve quality article output. At the moment the coordinators are discussing preliminary plans for an improved version of The Bugle, and are working with editors from the American Civil War task force who are in the process of organizing a new special project relating to that conflict. It is our hope to see these changes implemented in the upcoming month. Lastly, as many of our members are also in school, we extend our best wishes to all who will be taking final exams both this month and next. For the IX coordinator tranche, TomStar81 (Talk) 22:36, 30 April 2010 (UTC) |
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This month we're taking a look at the Military history WikiProject's special projects. At present we have three—Operation Great War Centennial, Operation Majestic Titan, and Operation Normandy—with, as Tom mentions in his introduction, a fourth coming on line as this newsletter goes out.
Special projects are a great way of organising a long-term collaboration with a specific end-point in mind, and tend to be more goal-oriented and focused than the general task forces or informal working groups. Joining a special project is also a fantastic way to work alongside like-minded editors with whom you'll undoubtedly develop close working relationships; by your third or fourth FA submission you'll hopefully be operating as part of a well-oiled team. Editor roles are many and varied: content writers, source material providers, image- and map-makers, copy editors, reviewers, MoS gurus, wikignomes, specialists and generalists... you're sure to find a job that suits you and benefits the team. If you have an idea for a special project or are already undertaking a collaboration that you think fits in with the ethos of those above, and you'd like to benefit from Milhist's support and infrastructure, consider dropping the coordinators a note. Personally I've found the synergy and teamwork of contributing to a special project (Operation Normandy in my case) to be one of the most rewarding and enjoyable aspects of my time here. I hope you will too. EyeSerenetalk 14:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC) | |||
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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 18:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Cullen
I'm afraid that I feel I'm compelled to make positive public comment on your skill and ability in adding info boxes to biographies of Australian Military figures. You appear to do an excellent job in this domain, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks this. On behalf of the others, and myself, I thank you and encouage your continued high class work. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. I figured something at least somewhat decent was required in the article to detract from its rather poor state. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LI (May 2010)
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With Eurocopter's resignation (see editorial below), this month marks the end of his tenure as a project coordinator. Eurocopter has been with the team for almost three years now and will be sorely missed, but he has taken the tough decision that his real life commitments have unfortunately made it too hard for him to focus on his coordinator duties. We wish him good luck in the future, both in real life and on-wiki. Efforts to redesign The Bugle are moving forward and it is our intention to roll out a new format, based on the Signpost, for next month's issue. We hope that this will allow us to provide better coverage of the project's news by allowing more room to expand on the stories we bring to you. If you have any comments or suggestions on what we can do to improve coverage, please let us know. —your IX Coordinator Tranche, May 2010 |
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For those of you who might not know me, I'm Eurocopter. I served as a coordinator of the Military history WikiProject from August 2007 until few days ago, when I decided to resign due to real life issues making it impossible for me to continue to perform project duties on a regular basis. Reflecting on my experience and activities within the project, I decided to write this editorial to set out a few thoughts and offer some advice to interested members. First of all, what does project coordination mean and how does it help the Military history WikiProject? Although the coordinators do not have any real executive powers, they play an important role in project management. To make editing contributions easier for our members we establish guidelines, manage Peer and A-Class reviews, and consult and assist when needed. The primary goal of the coordination team has always been to stimulate the development of quality articles and, once they have been developed, to facilitate maintaining them at a high standard for as long as possible. This has been carried out through the organization of a considerable number of assessment drives, contests and special projects. However, there is still much to be done to make the project one of the best and most active wiki-communities. Coordinator involvement in trying to achieve this, as the central promoters of any activity undertaken within the project, is more than important; the coordination team should stand as an example of civilised and constructive cooperation. Perhaps the most annoying issue—unfortunately quite widespread through the pages of Wikipedia—is POV-dominated conflict. While such a phenomenon might seem inevitable in a community within which hundreds of members of different nationalities with different historical and political views interact, it doesn’t mean we should accept it. The ability to neutrally mediate such conflicts is an important and desirable coordinator function. Secondly, but most importantly in my opinion, is the question of how the project enables editors to contribute effectively. Perhaps you already know how difficult it is to take an article to the highest quality levels such as A-Class or featured status. It is even harder to do this working alone. I believe the best thing the Military history WikiProject has done is to bring together groups of editors with similar interests. As there are very few editors skilled in all the diverse article development areas, you might feel the need for help from editors more experienced in, for example, advanced copy editing, image editing etc. To this end the project provides task forces and special projects where members should always feel encouraged to ask questions, discuss, debate and give advice. Such cooperation is the best way to create properly balanced articles and to establish a neutral point of view. Our Style guide and Academy are also useful in guiding you along the path of writing an article. A final, but vital, part of the collaborative article writing process is editor behaviour when interacting with other editors who are contributing to the same article. Even on those occasions where an editor upsets you or allows their personal opinions to influence their editing, always remain calm, civil and try to reach an agreement. Contributing to Wikipedia is something most of us do as a hobby; time spent in useless conflicts is precious editing time wasted. All in all, the Military history WikiProject is a good meeting point for milhist-interested editors, both beginners and advanced, with someone always there to give help and advice when needed. I wish to thank all my fellow coordinators and project members who keep this beautiful community running. I will certainly miss it! Best regards and happy wiki-editing! Eurocopter (talk) 20:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC) | |||
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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 17:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Mark Donaldson - Photographic Sourcing
G'day Bryce, Since you've not been editing for a few days (something to do with essays and exams I daresay), I thought I would let you know that I've responded with a more detailed rationale on Talk:Mark Donaldson#Citation requests for honours and awards section. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 20:09, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
- Hi AusTerrapin. Sorry for the delay in reply - yep, exam time at uni. Replying to the comments now. Cheers Abraham, B.S. (talk) 05:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Another Major General John Stewart Whitelaw
Hi Bryce, I just noted that you made some changes to John Whitelaw (general). I was just researching Major General John Stewart Whitelaw AO CBE (11 June 1921 - 18 June 2010) and was wondering how to name the article for this person, who like you is unsure of his pedigree. Regards Newm30 (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- Hi mate. It's extremely difficult to think of the correct way of naming this article. The only thing I can perhaps think of is incorporating his life dates into the title some how. Perhaps something along the lines of John Whitelaw (1921–2010) or John Whitelaw (general, 1921–2010). Given some of the sources, I am not yet entirely convinced this Major General John Whitelaw held the middle name of "Stewart", or any middle name for that matter, so perhaps maybe even moving the existing article on the other Major General John Whitelaw to John Stewart Whitelaw and have an article on the younger one at where the current article is at: John Whitelaw (general). What do you think? Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
John-the-younger
Your opinion is solicited at Talk:John Whitelaw (general)#John-the-younger. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- As I stated on the article's talk page, I have withdrawn from discussions on this subject. However, I have already raised possible suggestions to Newm30 on the naming above. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:19, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LII (June 2010)
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June's contest results plus the latest awards to our members |
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This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 18:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Impressive!
Well done. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some wikipedians feel that lists should have a citation for each member in the list. I'm unsure. What do you think? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- P.S. Do you know if anyone is working on a list of RAN admirals? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- adding citations does make it easier if someone tries to slip a hoax in, particularly while quite a lot of the naems are redlinks. One thing I noticed about the list is that it doesn't include Air Commodores, despite the preamble saying it's a list of Air Officers, confusingly while a brigadier is not a general officer, it's my undestanding, and waht the Air Officer article says, that Air Commodore is regarded as an Air Rank. David Underdown (talk) 12:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry to drop in but there isn't a requirement to have all citations for all the members in the list. As long as every member is covered by a general reference then that is fine. This is mainly used to cover lists from books where every individual reference is to the same two pages in a book. If there is an individual page for each officer then individual references would work well. Regards, Woody (talk) 13:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the explaination, Woody. I believe that so long as everything is cited through, at least, a general reference - as they are in this list - then individual cites are not required. The proplem with air commodores, David, is that unlike the three higher ranks included in this list, I do not know of any source that lists them all and I would be hard pressed to include half of them let alone all. I know it is probably confusing by having it this way and yet including a link/note on it being a list of Air Officers so I might have to re-word that. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Substituted "air officer" for "air marshal". Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 13:17, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- I can quite understand why you wouldn't want to include Air Commodores, it was the possibility of rewording that I was really getting at. Having looked over the article again, I agree that the general references are fine in this instance - individual refs woud only really be needed if you were compiling from a multitude of sources. Sonce the refs are from the RAAF itself, I'd imagine they'll be pretty quick to update when someone is promoted, so taht also helps keep out hoaxes. David Underdown (talk) 13:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you all! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- (Sorry Bryce, I was not intending to use your talk page as a discussion forum! I just wanted to say "Good work!" Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC))
- (And thanks Woody for the answer I was soliciting. David/Woody/Bryce: I'm continuing the conversation at Talk:List of Australian generals and brigadiers#Citations? - I look forward to reading your opinions. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC))
- Thank you all! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks! That's exactly the sort of feedback I was soliciting. Appreciated. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
DYK for List of Australian air marshals
 | On July 23, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article List of Australian air marshals, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page. |
— Rlevse • Talk • 12:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LIII (July 2010)
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July's contest results, the latest awards to our members, plus an interview with Parsecboy |
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Milhist A-class and Peer reviews Jul-Dec 2009
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The WikiChevrons | |
| By order of the Military history WikiProject coordinators, for your devoted contributions to the WikiProject's Peer and A-Class reviews during the period July-December 2009, I am delighted to award you the WikiChevrons. Roger Davies talk 10:38, 30 August 2010 (UTC) |
- Thanks! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Milhist A-class and Peer reviews Jan-Jun 2010
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The WikiChevrons | |
| By order of the Military history WikiProject coordinators, for your devoted contributions to the WikiProject's Peer and A-Class reviews during the period January-June 2010, I am delighted to award you the WikiChevrons. Roger Davies talk 10:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC) |
- Thanks! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
| This is an archive of past discussions with User:Abraham, B.S.. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |