User talk:5theye/Archive Jul 2008

Disgusting use of 'till'

Hi,

I was just wondering about this edit. What's disgusting about the use of 'till'? This word is actually older than 'until'[1], it's not as informal as it might look. I don't particularly mind one way or the other (in fact, I think it might sound better with 'before' instead) I was just wondering whether you were aware of that. --Angelastic (talk) 07:48, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm here to agree, and to tell you that Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10e, dates "till" from the 12th century and "until" from the 13th century: "until" is derived from "till", not the other way around. The Wednesday Island (talk) 12:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I always assumed that the word "till" was solely used as a verb (or noun)—e.g. to till land and the like—and that its use was incorrect. Perhaps I'm wrong, but "until" is more modern and standard now anyway, is it not? = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 14:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how you can call a word which has been used in this sense since 1400 "more modern" (although it's true that it's a century more modern than "till":). I've checked the Guardian and the Times style guides and as far as I can see they have nothing to say on the matter. Quinion's advice here (for whatever Quinion's advice is worth) is that "until" is "generally considered to be slightly more formal, which is why it turns up more often in edited prose. It is also rather more likely to appear at the beginning of a sentence than is till. But till is perfectly good English". (And see also Geoffrey Pullum's mention of the subject here.) Of course, if you can find a style guide which recommends actual replacement of "till" with "until", go ahead and try to get it into WP:MOS, but I don't believe there actually is one. The Wednesday Island (talk) 14:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware that "till" was considered an appropriate synonym of "until". Hm. Well, it still makes me cringe to see it, and I don't see any problem with me replacing it, even if my reason wasn't quite right. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 14:46, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

According to Garner, "Till is, like until, a bona fide preposition and conjunction. Though less formal than until, till is neither colloquial nor substandard. It's especially common in British English. [examples omitted] And it still occurs in American English. [examples omitted]" — $wgUser 02:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm aware of its frequent occurence, I was just unaware that it was acceptable. = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 02:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal/Main Page Draft

I suggest we start with a copy of the current Main Page, called Wikipedia:2008 main page redesign proposal/Main Page Draft, and through edits and discussion transform it via consensus into the new Main Page that will be proposed to the community for final approval. Competitions won't work (we tried that last time), because submissions that are only slightly different from each other will divide the vote between them which will drive their basic common design out of the competition, obscuring its support as well as support for particular design elements. Each new design element or change needs to be discussed on the talk page of the community-developed draft, to arrive at a consensus for each as to whether it should be included or not, and what each design element should look like. We need to literally get on the same page and integrate the best features of all those wonderful designs that have been submitted. Let the edit wars editing and discussion begin! :) The Transhumanist 01:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Request to move article For All Tid incomplete

You recently filed a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves to move the page For All Tid to a different title - however your proposal is either incomplete or has been contested as being controversial. As a result, it has been moved to the incomplete and contested proposals section. Requests that remain incomplete after five days will be removed.

Please make sure you have completed all three of the following:

1. Added {{move|NewName}} at the top of the talk page of the page you want moved, replacing "NewName" with the new name for the article. This creates the required template for you there.
2. Added {{subst:RMtalk|NewName|reason for move}} to the bottom of the talk page of the page you want to be moved, to automatically create a discussion section there.
3. Added {{subst:RMlink|PageName|NewName|reason for move}} to the top of today's section here.

If you need any further guidance, please leave a message at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves or contact me on my talk page. - JPG-GR (talk) 00:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)