User talk:148.252.24.230

Jamie Oliver

Hi there IP 148. Yes, Oliver was born in England and yes, English is generally regarded as a nationality. But if you have information from good sources that show that Oliver is seen, or indeed that he describes himself, as more English than British, you might like to provide it in a discussion thread at Talk:Jamie Oliver and try to get consensus for your change to the lead section. You might also want to consider that the lead section there, as in any article, is meant to summarise the content of the entire article. There is currently no claim in the article main body that Oliver is regarded, either by himself or others, as English rather than British. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello @Martinevans123:. Why is it up to me to provide a source that says he considers himself more English than British rather than it being the responsibility of those in favour of the label "British" to prove the opposite? Funny thing is, I virtually never see Scottish or Welsh people called "British". Why is it that they are allowed to have a separate identity while the English have theirs subsumed by British identity? When a Scottish or Welsh person is called British, it is almost always for some specific reason. For example, Andy Murray represents the UK as a whole, not just Scotland, so should be called "British". But even his article says he is a "British professional tennis player from Scotland". 148.252.24.230 (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, even within the UK, nationality can be a rather fraught subject. What you are proposing is not definitely wrong. I think "British" is there my long standing consensus? You might find the essay Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom of some use. You might want to copy this thread over to Talk:Jamie Oliver where more editors might be able to see it and contribute. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:25, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Just for purposes of comparison, I see that Hugh is described as English, as is Clarissa, Gary and Tom; but Mary is still British, and so are these Geordies. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: Mary Berry's original appellation was English until it was silently changed by an anonymous editor back in 2016. The Hairy Bikers are collectively referred to as British, but both have their own respective articles, where they are referred to as English. In any case, longevity does not imply consensus. 148.252.24.230 (talk) 14:54, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

The essay you cited about this issue itself says "there is no consensus on how this guideline should be applied to people from the United Kingdom". I don't see why "British" should be the demonym we default to. It might be considered lazy and even americanocentric – it is, after all, people from outside the UK who fail to distinguish between specific regions of it. 148.252.24.230 (talk) 14:58, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

All fair points. I suspect one reason we default to British is that we all have UK passports. I suspect there are no special rules for chefs or restauranters. If you copy this thread over and and make your change again, personally I will not revert you. Other editors might do, of course. But at least we have a sensible discussion going. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Apology

My apologies for reverting your edit. I didn't understand the precise definitions of British and English. British was in the original article and there are strict rules around changing the biography of a living person.TheDoDahMan (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

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