User:Urashimataro/Uramse Pages/Archive05

Jan 13

Hi, Bamse. Long time no see. Would you like me to comment your nomination? The problem is that I have seen already the article and I don't know what to say. Maybe that there's a red link?

One thing I could say, but I don't know if I should, is that the term Shinto should be used with care, because the existence of Shinto and the meaning of the term itself before the Meiji era are hotly disputed, and many (I among them) do not believe Shinto existed before the Meiji reformation. The situation is described here. The term many (I included) prefer for Shinto before the Meiji era is "local religious beliefs". I would therefore replace the first sentence with "The practice of marking sacred areas began in Japan as early as the Yayoi period (from about 500 BC to 300 AD) originating from primal religious beliefs".

I didn't think it was important to mention before because it's a very specialistic issue, but for a Featured list it could be a problem.

Another possible issue is the fact the illustration has numbers but no nomenclature.

Let me know if you want me to comment on these points. I am kinda shy about it but, if you want me to, I will do it.

I am taking a needed break from Important Cultural Property and NT writing about torii. Take care.Urashima Tarō (talk) 03:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

A well deserved break! I did not know that there were that many different types of torii, very interesting! Please go ahead and comment on the shrine list (a couple of red links should not be a problem). As an editor you might not be allowed to vote though (not sure about this), but commenting is probably ok. At the moment I am afraid that the nomination might end up like the painting list which on first attempt failed because of a lack of reviews. PS: Got to about half of the important groups of traditional buildings and am slowly moving on.bamse (talk) 11:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Added an English legend to File:Plan of Shinto Shrine.jpg on commons and noticed that in Shinto_architecture#Common_features, there is "14." which is not present (as a number) in the picture and should probably be added to "13.". bamse (talk) 11:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

JAN 14

Regardless of whether I am allowed to vote or not, considering how closely we have been collaborating it surely is better if I don't. I will comment tomorrow. BTW, Cultural Properties of Japan was assessed as a C article by an anonymous hand. I am sure you noticed. I wish that, before disappearing forever into the void they came from, assessers left comments instead of a useless and offensive letter. Urashima Tarō (talk) 13:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd also have appreciated constructive feedback rather than a "C". At least it says on the talk page: "This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-Class status", so there is potential for more.bamse (talk) 00:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

JAN 16

Hi Urashimataro! I completed the list of Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings. Basically added the section from Cultural Properties of Japan to it and thereby created: Groups of Traditional Buildings. Also made redirects for: Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings, Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings and List of Important Preservation Districts for Groups of Traditional Buildings.bamse (talk) 16:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I wonder what a zaigo town is...bamse (talk) 16:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

JAN 18

Hi, checked the new age but found nothing to correct. You did a thorough job, as usual.

I am kind of stuck with the torii article. I have a lot of info, but I don't know how to write it down. I have to think about it.

Is this what you wanted? You didn't use a macron, so I am not sure.

在郷町【ざいごうまち】江戸時代,代官･郡奉行が支配する農村部に成立した,商工業者が集住する地域。在方町とも。当時は在町,郷町,町分まちぶん,町場,町村まちむらなどとよばれた。法制上は農村で,住民も身分的には百姓として年貢を負担。近世初期の兵農･商農分離政策にもかかわらず存続した町場と,17世紀後半以降の農民的商品経済の発展に伴い,生産･流通の中心として展開したものとがあり,前者を在町とし,後者のみを在郷町とする見解もある。人口数千人ほどの規模を持つことが普通で,畿内地方では数ｋｍごとに在郷町が存在していた。 [株式会社岩波書店　岩波日本史辞典], 2008DVD edition.

Edo period rural commercial and industrial zone? Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I guess, that's what I meant. Might be worth a Zaigō article... bamse (talk) 04:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan 19

Took you at your word and thought about writing a zaigō stub, but decided against it after noticing that it would have been an orphan. The subject is too obscure. I added a footnote. I must say I am impressed by the number of templates you know how to use. Wish I could say the same. Urashima Tarō (talk) 02:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan 21

Good decision to make a footnote out of it. Sorry for not being very active on wikipedia these days. It is likely not going to change in the near future but I am trying to follow what's going on with cultural property articles. If you have some time, it would be great if you could keep an eye on the national treasure shrine list featured list candidacy in case I am not able to respond quickly to comments. bamse (talk) 00:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi,Bamse. I am not very active either. I have a lot of work to do, and tomorrow I am leaving for Matsuyama. Take a look at my talk page. I was invited to vote for the list and I don't know where to go because I never voted before. Can you explain? Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Usually people leave a note on the candidate page saying if they are happy with the modifications that the author made. In this case they'd generally vote "support" (like Ruslik_Zero did on that page). If they are not happy they can ask for more modifications. You'd probably want to leave a short note saying if you are happy and explain that you'd prefer not to vote. bamse (talk) 09:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Jan. 26

Hi, Bamse. Sorry for not being active, but I have to work. In Matsuyama I got some shots of one of the five hachiman-zukuri shrines still in existence. I already added one to the article. Got more. TTU soon. Urashima Tarō (talk) 08:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologise. I am not doing much on wikipedia either these days. Good shot of the shrine! bamse (talk) 22:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

February 13

Hi Bamse. Just some lines to touch base.

I noticed in National Treasures of Japan you didn' use capitals for certain words. [[wikt:国|国]][[wikt:宝|宝]]: ''kokuhō'') are the most precious of Japan's [[Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan|tangible cultural properties]]

Any reason? Can I correct the link?

The first image is BRILLIANT. Bravo! I am going through a busy period (not with work: other things, good things), but I have started working again on WP and Commons (I know you're very active there too). For the time being I am working on the article on Torii, which proved to be far harder than I expected for reasons I will explain in the near future, when I will need your help (hoping you will be available). I hope to finish it next week. After that, I am going to check one by one the 127 articles I have written in the past two years. I realized they need it, badly.

On a different note, any plans, ideas, objectives, problems, proposals you wish to share?Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Urashimataro! Long time no see. Don't have much time for wikipedia these days, so I focused on the good article candidacy of the National Treasure article and the FLC of the castle list. I also like the first image, but it is Maunus' idea realized by the photography workshop. No idea how it is done. Fixed the capitals in the link. Feel free to change other mistakes. Hopefully I can be of any help with the Torii. It already looks quite good. As for plans, I am still dreaming of making a good topic out of the national treasure stuff, but it will take time. bamse (talk) 09:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

February 13

I didn't know about the workshop. Could you tell me where exactly was the original explanation of the technique? Urashima Tarō (talk) 02:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean. I just posted a request here and the rest was done by User:Quibik who calls the technique: "plain images along with some tables & CSS". So I guess one needs to know Cascading Style Sheets (which I don't) or easier just copy this code:

<div  class="thumb tright">
<div  class="thumbinner">
{|  style="border-collapse:collapse"   cellpadding="0"
|-
|style="border:1px solid black;"|[[File:Himeji   Castle The Keep Towers.jpg|alt=Himeji Castle|x100px]]
|style="border:1px   solid black;"|[[File:ElevenFaced_Kannon_Domyoji.jpg|alt=Eleven-faced Kannon   (ekadaza mukha)|x100px]]
|style="border:1px   solid black;"|[[File:Momohatozu_Huizong.JPG|alt=Pigeon   on a peach branch, by Emperor Huizong of Song Northern Song Dynasty|x100px]]
|}
{| style="border-collapse:collapse"   cellpadding="0"
|-
|style="border:1px solid black;"|[[File:Kagenkei_GongStand_Kofukuji.JPG|alt=Buddhist   ritual gong stand (kagenkei)|x102px]]
|style="border:1px   solid black;"|[[File:Kaen_type_vessel_of_Sasayama-iseki.jpg|alt=Kaen   type vessel found from Sasayama|x102px]]
|style="border:1px   solid black;"|[[File:NikkoKaramonHaidenHonden.jpg|alt=Karamon   (Chinese gate), Haiden (prayer hall), and Honden (Main hall) at Toshogu|x102px]]
|}
<div class="thumbcaption">Some of   the National Treasures of Japan</div>
</div>
</div>

Looks a lot like the syntax of wikipedia table, so it is not hard to modify. bamse (talk) 09:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Feb 18

Hi, Bamse. Could you please take a look the yet-unpublished article on torii? I am almost through, content-wise, but I must recheck the second part, after Torii ornamentations. Any opinion about content is welcome. Don't bother making style changes, as I am not finished. Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:09, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Urashimataro! Very interesting article. I didn't know there was so much to write about torii. Fixed a couple of typos. As for content, I wouldn't know what could be added since I don't know what is available in the sources. Clearly it would be desirable to have more information about the history of torii and the development of different styles (when did different styles develop and in which region; sometimes it is already in the article but not always). Other than that, maybe some more info on exceptional torii (biggest, smallest, most in one place,...) could be added to the article. Some more specific suggestions are as follows:
intro

note 1 is a bit vague: "very small", "very large"

meaning and uses

make new paragraph for torii as symbol starting with Yamabushi,...; join with paragraph on torii in the US forces in Japan
torii stands in front of the tombs of each Emperor. I know that recent emperors are buried in this way and that very old emperors were buried in kofun. I don't know much about the time in-between and when the change happened. Do you know?

history

I modified the gallery to make use of the gallery template in order to get rid of the section heading (Proposed relatives of the torii) which is now a gallery title
Not sure if the Japanese (kanji) name (箭門) of a Korean gate is necessary or if the name in hangul would make more sense.
"composed by"->"composed of"?
There is not much of a classical (chronological) history in the history section. I'd suggest replacing the section "History" with more specific sections such as "Possible relatives/ancestors", "Name", "Japanese origin and other theories".
is note 2 still necessary? There is already a picture in the gallery.
You could replace the bulleted list with "1., 2., 3...." since it seems to be chronological.
Not sure how a second lintel "bars entrance to evil." If possible it should be explained.
What are "members"? The same as logs?

Torii ornamentations

Kamakura-gū for example has a white one. Not sure what the "one" refers to (kasagi or nemaki?).
...which first appeared at Kasuga-taisha in 768. Appeared on a torii or on a shrine building? If on a torii, that would mean there were torii in the Nara period, while a bit before you write that torii can be "reliably pinpointed to at least the mid-Heian period".

Types of torii

Haven't tried it, but it appears that even on my small screen there would be space for 4 pictures per row.
For my taste, there is too much empty space around the torii pictures. If this space is removed, the torii would be larger and small differences such as kusabi more visible.
"pentagonal" refers to the cross-section?
Sometimes you put italics for Japanese names in the image captions and sometimes not. Is it intentional?
Not sure what the bullet after the gallery ("Shime torii or chūren torii (注連鳥居)") does. Should it be a section?
"The torii of the shinmei family are the oldest and the simplest" How do they compare with the Shime torii?
"The ends of the kasagi are imperceptibly thicker, giving the impression of an upward slant." Either it is imperceptible or it gives an impression, no?
"This type of decoration was suggested by Chinese architectural styles and was started in 768." Seems to contradict the mid-Heian statement (see above)

I won't be very active on wikipedia for a week or so, but will try to check back once in a while to see how the torii article (which looks already very good) develops. bamse (talk) 15:13, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Feb. 19

Bamse, you were thorough as usual. Thanks for the new gallery template: much better. I didn't even know it existed. Do you think the article is too long and/or contains info that can be safely eliminated?

Today I modified the illustrations as you said, and you were right, of course. Will do the rest of the changes tomorrow. Thanks again.