User:Jerzy/ANI Discussion

The following is copied (with suppression of two templates that interfere with printing it) from the presumably final [ version of the LoPbN discussion] on WP:ANI.

List of people by name

{{archive top}} As identified below by Carcharoth, this is not really the right venue. Kudos to him for proposing closure, and bringing the drama to a calm close. Guy (Help!) 20:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Srikeit has suggested I post this here although I'm really not sure if this is the right place as all I wanted was his opinion as closing admin. Anyway, below is the discussion from his talk page. <K F> 12:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you realize this, but the list of people by name article has something like 1400 subpages. Does your DRV closure encompass these? --- RockMFR 04:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all the subpages are covered under the close. I realised that after the closure and was trying to figure out the best way to go about it when I received your message. I requested Eagle_101 to help me out and he has graciously accepted to help me out using a script. --Srikeit 04:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You're carrying a huge load of responsibility now. In your closure, you have failed to address the concerns of all those, including myself, who were against deletion without any replacement. Various suggestions have been made for that, but it seems no measures have been taken. Could you comment on that, please? All the best, <K F> 09:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe that it is my responsibility to clarify and counter each and every argument in a discussion before closing. I considered the arguments offered, determined the consensus achieved in both the former AFD and the DRV, used the discretion I have been afforded as an admin and made the call, which seems to have been accepted as fair by most (as indicated by the lack of complaints here). However if this close seems grossly unfair or irresponsible on my part, please feel free to start up a discussion about it on WP:ANI or any other avenue suitable to you and if you can garner enough support for your cause, do bring it back to DRV. In the meantime, I stand by my decision. Thanks --Srikeit 10:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be awful, wouldn't it, if you as an admin didn't stand by your decision, so I didn't expect anything else. I'm talking about an altogether different thing here, as the inevitability of this bulk of information being eventually deleted was clear to me (although, personally, I don't see any consensus anywhere). No, I'm talking about an alternative to the c.1,400 pages that are now lost. Their removal has orphaned what may well be hundreds of biographical stubs, and the next step might be their being tagged for deletion by an insensitive bot.

Carcharoth has made a suggestion (at the end of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/List of people by name) what could be done to counter this, and my (and other people's) humble idea was to "projectify" all those pages in the way it was done with User:Black Falcon/Sandbox/List of German actors (from 1895 to the present) or Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/List of literary works with eponymous heroines. That's what you haven't addressed in your closure, and I just want to know what you think about it. Best wishes, <K F> 10:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Carcharoth's was an interesting suggestion but even after a dual listing at AFD/MFD and a complete DRV discussion it did not gain any substantial consensus nor did it provoke any discussion elsewhere. However the consensus to delete the pages was quite clear with substantiated reasons in both the discussions so I based my decision on it. As for the loss of information, I request you to look at WP:EFFORT. Anyway, I don't think my talk page is the best forum for drawing attention to the matter. Please go to WP:ANI if you want a more thorough discussion about this. Thanks --Srikeit 11:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

There was a consensus at AfD and DRV to delete this. I suppose you could start a category for "every person on Wikipedia" if you think it would be useful. ^(H) 12:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I was just re-reading this. You are aware, right, that Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography have effectively been trying to do just that? There have been valiant efforts to tag all the talk pages of biographical articles (articles about people) with {{WPBiography}}. That does effectively create a category (albeit for the talk pages) of "every person [with an article] on Wikipedia". So I fail to see what point you are trying to make? That such an effort is doomed to failure? Maybe. But LoBpN was one way of attmpeting it. {{WPBiography}} is merely another such attempt, and I've been trying to ensure the information from one is transferred to the other. Carcharoth 16:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments

I agree with Srikeit that the closing administrator is under no obligation to bear the responsibility of either refuting the opposition on an AFD, MFD, DRV, or other page dedicated to the consensus-creation process. All that an administrator must do is to ensure that his or her decision is in line with "consensus", give or take the minor discretion that the administrator is allowed to take. It is, then, not Srikeit's responsibility to offer any suggestions as to how the deleted data is to be preserved on Wikipedia, if at all.

If I am allowed my own, personal, opinion, then it is that it is an intrinsic attribute of the List that it is unwieldy and difficult to maintain, regardless of whether it exists in article (main) space or in a wikiproject. The reason why our categories system works to the extent that it does is that it features an article->category relationship, not a category->article relationship. With a list, (1) All users working on a biography must know the existence of this List; (2) Any user who decides to put the biography in the List has to actively move to edit the List to add that biography, and (3) Any such user must know how to navigate and maintain said List, difficult when the List needs a whole page of instructions dedicated to it to address this topic. With a category, on the other hand, the user (1) has to find the relevant category, but (2) only needs to edit the article itself to add the article to the category, using a pretty self-explanatory syntax that almost all seasoned editors have mastered.

Please note that in no way am I against the idea of a List; in fact, I think it is quite useful. However, its usefulness can only be maintained as long as it is complete and concise. Completeness on an encyclopedia this size (not to mention the abundance of biographical articles), and on an encyclopedia without a definite editorial team, is difficult; however, I believe it can be achieved through the use of technical means. While I do not call for Wikipedia to become semantic overnight, I do believe that a few useful software tools, leveraging the power of the categories and templates system that already exists on Wikipedia articles, could generate an automated list that would be more complete, although maybe not as concise, as the List. Anyway, that is just a personal idea of mine. I encourage you, KF, and everybody else who is reading this to provide alternative ideas for the defunct List, as it is ultimately the responsibility of the community, not the deleting administrator, to provide such an alternative and to implement it. With best wishes, Tangotango (talk) 12:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If all biographical articles are categorized as such, perhaps a bot could keep a set of indexes up to date by reading vital information from infoboxes. But I agree that deleted system was just a tangled partial out of date mess. ^(H) 12:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

To me, the trouble with these lengthy discussions is that many contributors pick out one (maybe unwisely chosen) word or one (maybe unwisely worded) argument and elaborate on it while paying no attention to the rest of the text. I was talking about Srikeit's "responsibility," and I knew already when typing this that people would pick on it. I wasn't saying, was I, that it would have been his responsibility to come up with dozens of counterarguments. What I was saying is that it would have been ... nice? ... if he had also dealt with people's suggestions on how to preserve, and make accessible, the data from the now deleted list. As I have already pointed out, many contributors who were patrolling the New Pages and came across a biographical stub automatically did two things: (a) basic wikification and (b) add the new name to the List of people by name so that it no longer figures as an orphan, not even for the time being. Also, I have already made my suggestion: projectify the 1,400 pages or so. And please let's not start the "unwieldy unmaintainable outdated indiscriminate etc." discussion again (although the only thing that is clear to me here is that there is no consensus). <K F> 13:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to preserve the content of an article the time to do it is during the AfD, and the place to do it is your hard drive. I am sure if you ask nice you can have the deleted content e-mailed to you(though 1400 pages may be a bit much). ^(H) 13:17, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Let us please discuss this seriously. My hard drive is only open to myself and maybe one or two Trojans but not the general public. <K F> 13:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

What part of deleted are you having trouble understanding? The whole point of deleting it is that it's not really useful to the encylopaedia, which means that hosting it somewhere else on the encyclopaedia is not going to happen. The fact that there are over a thousand subpages rather makes the point that it is hopelessly unmaintainable. What do you want that mass of junk for? Guy (Help!) 13:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Not having any trouble understanding things (except maybe the concept of Wikipedia:Consensus). Also, as I have learned, WP:USEFUL is not an argument, so why mention it here? Thirdly, I don't believe you are the new benevolent dictator around here to be in a position to say "that hosting it somewhere else on the encyclopaedia is not going to happen". (Aren't you willing to discuss Carcharoth's proposal, see below?) And fourthly, I want that "mass of junk" for the same reason people want indices in books. And once again, please let's not start the "unwieldy unmaintainable outdated indiscriminate etc." discussion again <K F> 14:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It certainly may have been "nice" for Srikeit to have provided suggestions on "how to preserve, and make accessible, the data from the now deleted list", but even if had, it would not have been part of his role as deleting administrator. Indeed, if he had provided suggestions, those suggestions in themselves may be attacked as not mindful enough of every opinion voiced. The deletion and the preservation, if any, of the data deleted are two different topics. You are welcome to start a new Wikiproject or a new user page with a List of People by Name; however, you should note that unless radical changes are made to the List, the same problems that afflicted it will continue to afflict the new List.

On a different note, I do not agree that simply listing a biography on the List qualifies it as an unorphaned article; in fact, I think that is quite a dangerous attitude to take. If the only thing that links to a particular article is a global list, then it is quite possible that the subject of that biography is not notable. Listing an article on a list makes it an unorphaned page as far as MediaWiki is concerned, sure, but it simulatenously makes it difficult for the orphaned article to be detected and possibly integrated into Wikipedia, or possibly dealt with in another fashion. Cheers, Tangotango (talk) 13:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

As can be seen from the edit histories of both User:Black Falcon/Sandbox/List of German actors (from 1895 to the present) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/List of literary works with eponymous heroines, those lists had quite a number of active contributors as long as they were in the main space. Some of those contributors have now left (e g User:Whycreateanaccount, my pet example) but the main thing is that those who want to work on, or simply consult, the lists—and there is no longer any way of telling how often a page is accessed, is there—can do so in peace without the list being attacked all the time by the opponents of its existence. Even if they are considered "unwieldy unmaintainable outdated indiscriminate" etc., lists in the project space are not controversial—at least that's my experience. That's why I have made that suggestion.

I don't think it's "dangerous" (it's fun picking on a word) to try and complete a list as long as you have made sure beforehand, for example when patrolling the New Pages, whether a new biography is worth keeping and wikifying or not, after you have decided against speedy-deleting it. <K F> 13:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Missed the DRV completely

Um. I managed to completely miss that a DRV was taking place on this. I would have raised the same arguments that I did at the MfD. If I had known that there was a DRV heading towards deletion, I would have requested a few days to make a copy of the contents (as I did at the MfD). As it was, once the MfD closed I carried on with other stuff, and tried to generate discussion for my proposal. I am frankly rather horrified that people were participating in a DRV and were completely unaware (I'll assume good faith and presume, that like me they just missed the discussions going on elsewhere) of the discussions taking place at:

I was aware that there was little discussion going on, but I am about to take a wikibreak and I was going to return to the issue in June and advertise the proposal a bit more widely and start working on it. So how did these discussions completely miss each other?

I effect, my argument sums up as:

(1) I was willing to take the time to make a copy of the now-deleted list (see the talk page of the MfD), but this good-faith offer has been ignored and indeed snubbed.
(2) I was actively making detailed proposals on how to carefully move from this system to one based on categories, but people seemed to have lost interest in helping me carry out that proposal, so I was preparing to advertise it more fully and indeed carry out the required work myself (the actually LoPbN pages could have been blanked to page history to preserve the data while making the pages defunct).
(3) A DRV opened and closed without me being aware of it (I don't think I've ever actually edited the main LoPbN page, so it probably wasn't on my watchlist). The closing admin said that the proposal "did [not] provoke any discussion elsewhere" - that is just plain wrong. I have linked to the discussions that were taking place elsewhere.

Can I please ask for the pages to be undeleted and blanked and protected. That way the data is still accessible, but people cannot keep adding to this system. Carcharoth 13:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I thinks its a really unfortunate coincidence that you missed the DRV as your comments could have initiated an alternate discussion which in turn might have affected its eventual outcome. However that did not happen, consensus for deletion was established, I made my judgment call and here we are. However my statement about your proposal not provoking discussion elsewhere isn't incorrect. The links above show that despite your honourable attempts to initiate them, few comments were offered and the discussions have been completely dormant since the 23rd i.e since the DRV discussion started. As for your request, I'm sorry but it is out of my capability to undelete 1,400+ subpages single-handedly. Even the deletion of these pages was done by the diligent efforts of Eagle_101 and ABCD, whose help I solicited and who used a script to carry out the mammoth task. I'm sorry to be so unhelpful, but I feel I have done as much as is expected of an admin closing a DRV. Thanks --Srikeit 15:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That's OK. Thanks for responding, it is much appreciated. Can I just asked whether blanking to page history was ever even considered? That tends to preserve data while still rendering a page effectively defunct and dormant. Also, if a script was used to carry out the deletion, couldn't a script have been used to create the list I asked for at the MfD? I still feel, like I did there, that there was little effort made to preserve the information before deleting the system of pages. Unless someone can generate a list of all the pages listed on those pages, there is no way of saying for certain exactly what pages were listed there in the first place. Also, as I said at the Esperanza discussion, umbrella deletions like this really need to have a list at the MfD of all the pages deleted. ie. a simple list of all the 1400 pages deleted. Who has that list? Carcharoth 15:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This might help. --Srikeit 15:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks. One more point. Template:List of people by name compact page-index is what I would have used to make a copy. Theoretically I only wanted to make a copy of 26*26 pages, minus several pages as some are merged together. Probably less than 500 pages actually. So not quite the 1400 figure mentioned above. There were a lot of subsidiary and connecting pages. Carcharoth 15:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

More background

Further to the above, one of main things I had come up with was User:Carcharoth/List of living people compact index. This is what I am proposing would be used for all biographical articles, using a category based on some bot-generated list from {{WPBiography}}. I can still go ahead with this, but I was intending the first step to be to compare a list from LoPbN with {{WPBiography}}, to ensure nothing got missed. The list from {{WPBiography}} has already been prepared. It is a compressed size 3.4MB file at File:Bio list.sxw, containing 376,274 names. So work was (slowly) being done on this, and I am depressed that stuff was just deleted without anyone even acknowledging that discussion and work on the problems were taking place. The template talk page discussion also threw some interesting light on different methods of finding comprehensive lists of people with articles on Wikipedia, and how no single system seems to work yet. The methods were:

LoPbN (human maintained - often out-of-date)
Existing disambiguation pages (human maintained - often out-of-date)
Using indexes of relevant categories (automagically generated, requires human use and maintenance of category tags and pipe-sorting)
Transclusion list of {{WPBiography}} (more difficult to generate, requires humans to identify biographical articles for tagging)
Brute force, extended Google searches (requires human ingenuity to construct search terms)

All these methods were tried for finding a complete list of Wikipedia articles written about people named Fry. It was amazing how the lists were all different and had varying levels of success. The human-designed Google searches turned out to be best.

Thoughts on process

Finally, can I ask what went wrong here? If I make detailed proposals, and cogent arguments, is it normal for them to just be ignored? Should I have advertised them more widely? Should I have not looked away after the MfD and had in the back of my mind that a DRV might have been possible? Should those at the DRV have noticed that one of the most vocal participants in the AfD seemed to have missed the DRV entirely? I really don't know what to think abot this any more. I know I should have been more alert, but I feel the system is partially at fault as well in that numbers were being looked at rather than arguments and, that detailed proposals to move from one system to another before deletion, were just ignored or brushed to one side. In essence, the way I see this went is something like:

Delete, unmaintainable.
Oh, but why not do it this way?
No, delete.
But look, I've made this proposal.
No, delete.
But I'm willing to do the work on this
No, delete.
Are you listening to what I've said?
No, delete.
Hello, is anyone there?
No, delete.

I hope this gives some idea of how frustrating this has been for me. Apologies for writing at such length, but I do feel strongly about this. And to be crystal-clear, I am arguing only for a delay in deletion. After the new system was in place, I would have been very pleased to prepare a new MfD/AfD for these pages, or simply get them moved to Wikipedia namespace, and blanked to page history. Anyway, it is bad timing, but I'm going on a wikibreak for a few days, so won't be able to respond. I hope my arguments above are clear, and that others will argue on my behalf if they agree with me. Thanks for listening. Carcharoth 14:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The thing that went wrong here is your luck and a few ill-timed and unfortunate coincidences. Your arguments, cogent and detailed as they were, garnered few comments; probably because few shared your point of view, probably because they thought it was too tedious, maybe because they just weren't interested. We're all volunteers here and none of us are obliged to support every valid point and carry out every task however noble it might be. A more public forum might have helped your cause as it could have possibly have gotten you suggestions like Tangotango's above about the technical ways to maintain the list and maybe Eagle_101's script help. But that is all speculation. In hindsight, you should have probably watchlisted the page you were working on so hard and kept a general eye out for things going on with it. However you too are not obliged to do so. The participants could have informed you but again it wasn't obligatory. They might have thought that you had lost interest (like many other MFD particpants) in the matter as well. The system worked just as it was supposed to. Disputed close, DRV filed, consensus for overturning established (however not overwhelming), admin makes a judgment call and closes it. And I must say I did not consider just the numerical advantage in my close. Several detailed explanations (including the fine argument by Radiant! in the nom) were provided by the commenters favouring overturning. And I found many of the "endorse" comments to be essentially WP:ILIKEIT arguments in their various forms. Nevertheless, we can argue endlessly about the merit of the close and never have any valid solution. I understand that this entire situation has been frustrating for you and I apologise for it but blaming the system is never the solution. I hope a constructive discussion about this matter does occur and a mutual solution is formed. But in the mean-time, I think it is for the best that the current decision be accepted and we move on. Thanks --Srikeit 16:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Again, I really appreciate it. I just feel that my arguments were being ignored. I understand you can say Radiant's nominating argument was good. But then where does that leave my arguments? All I ever wanted was a list of the names on those pages, or the time to make a list. That was consistently ignored by those voting delete. The MfD no consensus closing had the unfortunate effect of prompting me to put it on the backburner until June, and I missed the DRV. The point is that it is always possible to reverse things on Wikipedia, and people should be prepared to if needed. The time taken for deleting shouldn't be less time than for undeletion. Carcharoth 16:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Potential solution

Would anyone have any objections to it being moved to the userspace of someone willing to work on it, so that an appropriate solution may be found (I would suggest categories, since thats what they are meant to be used for)? This question is being asked of the community as a whole, not just the aobve user. Viridae ^Talk 13:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems raised at the MfD was the potential for libellous comments hiding in the morass of pages. I tend to agree with that, but the solution would seem to be blanking to page history. That removes the links from Google searches, and depopulates "what links here". However, the actual data is still accessible in old versions. I would have proposed this at the DRV if I had been aware of it. Carcharoth 14:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really sure what you mean by "potential for libellous comments hiding in the morass of pages". Viridae ^Talk 14:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to this quote from the MfD: "Additionally, there may be BLP problems. One redlinked entry from this sublist reads "American criminal". Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. I have no idea how long it has been there (it predates the last subpage-shuffling on 24 Mar 2007) nor who added it. How many other entries present this same problem? How would we know?". Now I've cleared that up, can anyone confirm or deny that blanking to page history would deal with that, just like courtesy blankings of certain AfDs and DRVs? Carcharoth 14:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

ANI is not a second DRV

Just wanted to point out the ANI is not a second DRV. ^(H) 14:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Sorry about that. Can I open a second DRV? I didn't realise that. If I can, I'll wait until I get back from wikibreak, and then request a "history only" undeletion of, um, 1400 pages. That should be fun. Carcharoth 14:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That was not directed solely at you, not trying to single you out. A second DRV would only make sense if something has changed that would render the previous decision incorrect. ^(H) 14:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

So, "I missed it" doesn't count? :-) Seriously, I would have had several key points to add to such a discussion (see above). Whether or not those points would have changed the results is not really for me to judge. There is a step beyond DRV, but I don't want to go that route yet. A "history only undeletion" request (to enable me to review the content of the pages) is effectively what I am asking for. I just hope that those that carried out the deletion are aware that the onus may fall on them to carry out something like that. That is one of the things about massive deletions of 1400 pages - you have to be prepared to undelete if necessary. "It would be too much trouble" wouldn't really be a valid response, as it was just as much trouble to delete. At least I hope I've interpreted the DRV notes correctly. Carcharoth 14:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I do implore you to attempt to use the google cache first, I might even see if I can't rig up a page that has google links for you, that have all the old pages. You could use the cache from there. If we must undelete, a script will need to be written to effectively undo the deletion, should not be too hard. In any case, as a prelude, would you like me to undelete a few select pages and let you look? Again I'd suggest going the google cache route first, as that requires the least effort. (Give me a few moments while I rig up a page with links, if I can even do such a thing efficiently.) —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 16:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

How long does the Google cache last? I'm going to be away from my computer for a few days. I should be packing now. :-( Carcharoth 16:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-people-by-name-aa (for instance) is a Wikipedia mirror that's likely to contain these pages for a couple of weeks or so. --ais523 16:24, 28 May 2007 (U T C)

Brilliant. Names by X is a great example of an index list that can't currently be done with a category. Mainly because Category:People is depopulated into its thousands of subcategories. But hopefully if a bot can be got to re-add Category:People to all the {{WPBiography}} pages, then a category based index using {{largeCategoryTOC}} can be implemented. There. That sums up my plan, and if you (the audience here, not ais253) don't understand that, look at User:Carcharoth/List of living people compact index to see the system in action for Living People. Carcharoth 16:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here I've created a page with links to google cache, and if you like I'll make a page to whatever mirror you ask for. Go to User:Eagle_101/Sandbox where I've done the text replacement for you, and most if not all the links are now links to the google result from which you can get the cache from. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 16:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do note I did mutilate some of the formatting, but it gives you the results you need, even though the page is not the prettiest ;) —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 16:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both so, so much. You have been really helpful here. I can now finish packing and go on holiday with a clear conscience! :-)

The following is copied from the [

All I ever had here was a vision to use categories to produce a maintainable system to replace LoPbN, and to carefully ensure all the information under one system was transferred to the other. If anyone wants to go ahead with the plan laid out at Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/List of people by name#Proposed solution (please, please, read that before commenting), then please do so. I'll stop here, and add a final comment right at the end. Carcharoth 16:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Actually, Eagle 101's text formatting might need tweaking, as it doesn't quite work yet. But no matter, I get the general principle and I can easily generate URLs like that myself. Thanks again to you and ais253. Carcharoth 16:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Closing this thread

I'd like to propose that this thread be closed now. Though I'd be interested to see other's people's opinion on all this, I am aware that my typing and arguments have been increasingly frantic. For that I can only apologise. I don't normally do this, but as I said above, I'm packing to go on holiday and am a teeny bit stressed. Bad timing, I guess. Apologies if anyone was irritated by the drama here, and thanks again to those who were very patient and responded and helped find a solution to this. Thank you so much. Now, where's that wikibreak template... :-) Carcharoth 16:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

For someone who has put in an incredible amount of work on a project only to see it deleted without notice, you have been extremely polite, civil and understanding. I must commend you on that and I don't think any apologies are needed. If anything a lot of highly possible drama has been avoided and that's a real achievement. I hope you enjoy your holiday and relax those nerves. Looking forward to seeing you later. Cheers --Srikeit 17:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)