User:Choess/Pretenders

Hey, Wikipedia is great, rah rah, whatever. Unfortunately, while some editors are zealots for esoterica and accuracy, some are interested in promoting their pet esoteric causes. There are periodic edit wars over pretenders.

Portugal

The controversy centers around Hilda Toledano, alias Maria Pia of Braganza, Maria Pia de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Braganca, Maria Pia de Saxe Coburg Braganca, Maria Pia de Saxe Coburg Braganza, and her supposed successor Rosario Poidimani, alias Dom Rosario Saxe Coburg Gotha Bragança. The lady claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of the last King of Portugal, which is not entirely outside the realm of possibility, and to have been legitimated and made an Infante of Portugal, which is. Before her death, she adopted Poidimani as her successor. User:M.deSousa (also User:82.48.225.175 User:82.50.179.63 User:82.50.180.99 User:82.50.180.253 User:82.50.183.185 User:82.50.183.202 User:82.51.30.205 User:82.51.31.34 User:82.52.176.179 User:82.52.181.21 User:82.52.181.131 User:82.52.181.186 User:82.54.227.167 User:82.54.245.179 User:82.54.247.122 User:82.54.247.159 User:82.58.216.7 ...I got bored at this point, there are many more... and User:213.45.187.35) has been engaged in a long edit war to promote her claims. He can be seen in his usual form here, for instance. De Sousa is the "Grand Chancellor" to Poidimani, and will generally accuse opponents of being "Duarteists".

Interestingly, based on discussion in alt.talk.royalty, the "adoption" of Poidimani may not have gone uncontested by Maria Pia's natural children. As Poidimani and de Sousa appear to be the only active promoters of the claim at present, it's hard to say anything definitive about this.

Poidimani unsuccessfully sued Guy Stair Sainty for libel for publishing a refutation of these claims. He appears to be using his invented style for a variety of possibly dodgy investment projects.

Holstein

User:212.142.7.4 and User:62.166.121.172. Has a website here.

Michael Lafosse

Supposed Jacobite Duke of Albany with a faked pedigree. The initial article seems to have been propagandistic, but the nuttier claims were quickly debunked.

Count of Tyrone

I've created it to hold the history of this title, current claims to which conflict. Confusion starts at the death of the 8th Count ("after 1887"). Edits made to Earl of Tyrone (which I plan to remove eventually) claim that the 9th Count is James (Jacques?), b. 1937. Ó Neill Dynasty Today claims that the 9th Count is "Jean d'Tyrone" (but it said "Seamus" before editing by the same user who changed Earl of Tyrone). A message on alt.talk.royalty says that after the death of Owen O'Neill, the title "...was not assumed, so far as is known, by any of the O'Neill family until the 19th century, when a family of O'Neill [in] France and Martinique adopted the style of Comte de Tyrone. In 1901, on the death of the las[t] heir male of this family, Jorge O'Neill, of Lisbon, a Peer of the Kingdom of Portugal, styled himself Comte de Tyrone..." (Jorge's son Hugo is now styled the Count of Tyrone and Clanaboy.) If the 1901 death referred to was, in fact, the 8th Count, it throws the legitimacy and 1622 date of the title into question. This webpage suggests that the title was transferred from the French-Martinican branch therein outlined by a pacte de famille to Hugo in 1901 — but also that they did not assume the title until after 1689, again calling into question the supposed Spanish Netherlands patent.

I can't help thinking this is - in part - yet another of those pretender entries where wiki endulges some nonsensical claims to various titles.Alci12 11:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Well the problem, as much as anything, is that so much of the article seems contradictory, inconsistent or written by someone who doesn't understand the terms they are using. For instance "The Counts of Tyrone started as a Spanish Netherlands creation in 1621 when Patrick O'Neill, the second son of Sean O'Neill (eldest son of Earl Hugh O'Neill) was granted this courtesy title by Infanta Isabella of the Spanish Netherlands...The title was accepted by the King and the family moved to Martinique until 1888."

There is no such thing or person as Earl Hugh. What is this courtesy title? Courtesy titles usually mean one of two things the junior title to a higher title - in this case clearly not so - or recognition in a state of a foreign title. (The UK has/had warrants for the same thing) However recognition would not be the creation of a new title. If a title was created it is very unusual for foreign monarch to grant titles to lands they don't hold - for fear other monarchs would return the compliment. If the title were granted - under what terms of decent. The recognition, if it were so, by the KofFrance is irrelevant as he has no power to determine the titles status. These aren't my only quibbles but you'll gather I have issues with these entries!Alci12 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

There is some dispute as to the enumeration of the "Earls of Tyrone", but I think that the 2nd Earl of Tyrone was generally held to be Hugh the Great although others do not consider his son, Henry. He had several sons, one of which (John or Seán) became the 4rd Earl (or the 3rd?), see here:

   * Conn O'Neill, 1st Earl of Tyrone (c. 1484-1559)
   * Hugh O'Neill, 2nd Earl of Tyrone (1550-1616) (forfeit under English law in 1607)
   * Henry O'Neill, 3rd Earl of Tyrone (d. 1610)

Correction: Henry O'Neill was not 3rd Earl of Tyrone, because he predeceased his father. The holder of the titular position of Third Earl of Tyrone was his brother John/Sean, whose name follows.

   * Sean O'Neill, 4rd Earl of Tyrone, d. 1641
   * Hugh Eugene O'Neill, 5th Earl of Tyrone, 1633-1650 (Hugo Eugenio or Hugh Eoghan, son of John)

Correction: Hugo Eugenio O'Neill was titular 4th earl, not 5th earl of Tyrone. He was born illegitimately, but legitimized by the King of Spain. Correction: Insert: Owen Roe O'Neill (died 6 November 1649) is sometimes assigned the positition of titular 5th earl of Tyrone.

   * Hugh Dubh O'Neill, 6th Earl of Tyrone, 1610-1660 (son of Art Óg son of Art Mac a' Bharúin)
   * Hugo O'Neill, 7th Earl of Tyrone, d. 1667 (Son of Henry Ruaidh and grandson of General Owen Roe O'Neill)
   * Brian Roe (Bernardo), 8th Earl of Tyrone, 1616-1685 (son of Conor Ruaidh, son of Art mac a' Bharúin
   * Eugenio (Eoghan / Owen), 9th Conde de Tyrone, d. 1689 (Son of Bernando)

The John O'Neill highlighted above had a younger son (brother of Don Hugo Eugenio, Patrick O'Neill was also made Comte de Tyrone (of the Spanish Netherlands) by the Infanta Isabella of the Spanish Netherlands.

Correction: at the death of John/Sean O'Neill, it was clearly stated in contemporary records that he left only one son, Hugo Eugenio, at that time nine years old. "Conde de Tirone" is not a title given by the Spanish Netherlands, but just a Spanish translation of "Earl of Tyrone." There is no contemporary 17th century evidence in regard to the supposed Patrick O'Neill mentioned below.

According to Wiki:

At first under Papal protection, Patrick later served in the Irish units of the Spanish Army in the Eighty Years' War in the Netherlands against the Dutch Republic. However, with the outbreak of the Irish Rebellion of 1641, he embarked for Ireland with his cousins: General Owen Roe O'Neill, Henry Rua, Bernard and Hugh Dubh O'Neill to fight for a Gaelic and Catholic restoration in Ireland in the service of The Irish Catholic Confederation. With the Cromwellian victory in the Irish Confederate Wars (1641-53), Patrick returned to the Netherlands and lived his life within the Spanish holdings there and Spain. He had an elder brother, Hugh Eugene who took the title 4th Earl of Tyrone and lived until 1660 in Spain. Patrick's descendants tried to move back to Ireland, but eventually became subjects of the French monarchy and moved to Martinique.

A more fullsome account of the family is given here, under Count of Tyrone:

Patrick's son James (2nd Comte de Tyrone) received lands from the Compagnie des Iles d'Amérique or (Company of the American Islands) and permanently moved his family to the island of Martinique in the early 1670s. For roughly the next 200 years, the Counts of Tyrone lived peacefully in Martinique. The family's sons served proudly as officers in Dillon's or Walsh's Irish Regiments, in the Irish Brigade (French) Army. During the American Revolution, at least one officer of the family served with General Bernardo de Gálvez y Madrid, Count of Gálvez of the Spanish Army, under French approval, in his campaigns against the English in Louisiana, Georgia, and Florida. In the late 1700s, the Comté de Tyrone was a fellow sugar plantation owner and friends with the Tascher de le Pagerie family there in Martinique. This proved eventful when Napoleon Bonaparte took as his wife, Marie Josèphe Rose Tascher de la Pagerie, born in Les Trois-Îlets, Martinique, and widow of Alexandre, Vicomte de Beauharnais. She was a daughter of Joseph-Gaspard de Tascher, chevalier, seigneur de la Pagerie, lieutenant of infantry of the navy, and his wife, the former Rose-Claire des Vergers de Sanois. When their friend Josephine became Empress of France in 1804, the fortunes of the Counts O'Neill improved as well. The second sons of the Count were given the courtesy style of Vicomte de Tyrone. Jean Laurent O'Neill and Francois Henri O'Neill were the 1st and 2nd such holders. Both were officers in Irish regiments of the French Army.

But then:

By the mid 1800s, the 7th Comte, Louis O'Neill died having had three daughters, but no sons, so the title was passed to his brother, Francois Henri- 8th Comte de Tyrone. He died without issue right around the January 1887 and the title went dormant for a lengthy period. However, the estate was left in the care of Mary Auguste Eugenia Valentine O'Neill, daughter of the 7th Comté. Mary married Herman, Baron of Bodman, a junior member of the family of Friedrich I, Grand Duke of Baden. Herman was later Prime Minister of Baden. The politics of post World War I outsted the Baden royal family and they lived a quiet life, but stayed well connected within the European royal families following the 1918 move to the Weimar Republic. The title, by law, was thus returned to the Spanish crown in 1887, as it was their original grant. However, the right to recognize and restore noble rank is still retained by the Vatican as the font of all nobility. During the Spanish Civil War and the exile of the Spanish king, the Vatican assumed responsibility for the title. Genealogical work started in the 1930s. The claim stalled during the Second World War, but later petitions were made and after years of research and study, in 2006 the Vatican Secretariate of State "confirmamus" or confirmed the dignity of Count and gave territorial reference to a closely related line that also descends in the male from Conn Bacach O'Neill, 1st Earl of Tyrone. The present holder is now titled in Latin Comes Jacobum de Tyrone or Count James of Tyrone. This signifies the change of familial lineage of the title, but the lineage of the title remains in tact.

Counts of Tyrone (1623)

   * Patrick O'Neill, 1st Count of Tyrone b. 1623.  Insert:  Not that Patrick O'Neill was older, not younger, than Hugo Eugenio O'Neill.
   * James O'Neill, 2nd Count of Tyrone (b. 1660), lived in Ireland then moved to Martinique
   * Henry O'Neill, 3rd Comte de Tyrone
   * Jacques Henri, 4th Comte de Tyrone, brother was Jean Laurent, 1st Viscount Tyrone, Dillon Regt
   * Paul Francois Henri, 5th Comte de Tyrone (b. 1749)
   * Jacques, 6th Comte de Tyrone (1783–1839), brother was Francois Henri, 2nd Viscount Tyrone
   * Louis Jacques Tiburce, 7th Comte de Tyrone (d. 1859)
   * Francois Henri, 8th Comte de Tyrone (brother of Louis Jacques) (d. aft. 1887)
   * title dormant 1887-1937
   * Jaques, 9th Comte de Tyrone, claimed in 1937 and restored in 2006 by Vatican

I found this whilst looking for corroboration of Freiherr Von Bodman's existence:

1.2.Johann Hermann Frhr von und zu Bodman, b.Bodman 1838, d.Baden-Baden 1922; m.1st St.Florent, France 1865 Jeanne de Bernard de la Frégeolière (b.Angers 1844, d.St.Florent 1880); m.2d Paris 1881 Valentine O'Neill (b.Paris 1849, d.Baden-Baden 1913)

Johann Hermann and Valentine O'Neill, however this would put their deaths in 1922 and 1913, respectively. Hardly living well into the Weimer republic.

Also, Augusta Eugenie Valentine O'Neill de Tyrone is mentioned in The Nobilities of Europe (Paperback) by Melville Henry Massue; marquis de Ruvigny (Author). 2000. $29.99 from Amazon and he has several books on the same theme.

Also, a Mary-Auguste-Eugenia-Valen tine, mar. to Hermann Baron de Bodinan is mentioned in Irish Pedigrees, by John Hart (1999) (Genealogical Publishing Company). It must be noted that the first edition was published in 1878.

Again, from the Genealogical Publishing company

County Tyrone Ireland, Genealogy and Family :::History Notes: Genealogy & Family History : :::Special Extracts from the Irish Archives

By Irish Genealogical Foundation (U.S.), Irish Genealogical Foundation, Michael C. O'Laughlin :::Published by Irish Roots Cafe, 2002

ISBN 0940134799, 9780940134799

56 pages

Mary-Auguste-Eugenia-Valentine, mar. to Herman Baron de Bodman ("Grand Duché de Baden"). She supposedly had another two sisters; Mary-Anne Margaret and Mary-Anne-Thérese d. um. 1877. Daughters of Francis-Henry and Hermine de la Ponce and niece of Julien. Also mentioned is a certain Charles Count O'Neill de Tyrone (a cousin of Francis-Henry or Francois-Henri).

King Fernidad

The semi-coherent "King Fernidad Frederick" of Prussia, claims to be the son of a morganatic son of Prince August Wilhelm of Prussia and King of Prussia. The tenor of his internet postings suggest mental illness. Edited as User:68.111.191.29 and User:70.181.220.235.