User:BrandonYusufToropov/Judeofascism dispute

Sources

Brandon, this is WP:POINT. There aren't going to be any mainstream sources for this term, because it's not in common use, unlike the other term you object to. That is the key difference. Please say here which sources you intend to use. If you can find mainstream ones, I'll not revert you. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:02, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Point One

I'm reverting to Ta bu's version in a couple of minutes. If you think he shouldn't be making points about {prefix}-fascism, please take it up with him. BrandonYusufToropov 14:07, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Brandon, why won't you address the point about sources? You have to edit in accordance with WP policy and you're currently violating WP:POINT, WP:V, and WP:NOR. I understand you're upset about the other page, but the solution is to help to edit it, not to create a mess elsewhere. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

For goodness sake, you asked me to create the darned article! I obliged. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The sad truth -- duty calls

The term is, alas, in common use. Nobody likes that fact. But our job is simply to document instances of common parlance.

[1] (in article ISLAMO-WHAT? Search for "judeofascism" -- this cite points out that judeofascism predates islamofascism in common usage, which is surely relevant.)

[www.gopinsight.com/2005/08/judeo-fascist-terrorists.php]

[2] (search for Judeo-fascism)

[3] (search for Judeo-fascist)

[4] (search for "judeofascism")

[5] (ditto)

[6] (ditto)

[7] (ditto)

[8] (ditto)

[9] (ditto)

[10] (ditto)

[11] (ditto)

[12] (ditto)

[13] (ditto)

http://judeofascism.uffz.de/

BrandonYusufToropov 14:37, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

These are dodgy websites, with the exception of #3, which condemns the term. Islamofascism (term) is using The Observer, The Nation, and President Bush, among others. I know you can see the difference. You may not like it, and you may be right not to like it, but you can see it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

IMHO, Bush is dodgy, but what difference does that make? A photograph of common usage is a photograph of common usage. And we don't really care whether hornet's nests get stirred up, right? We can't care about that. BrandonYusufToropov 15:11, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Your opinion of Bush isn't what's at stake. It's whether he counts as a reputable source for Wikipedia. He does, as do The Observer and The Nation. The websites you've produced don't, and you know they don't. Please review WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS, and please edit in accordance with them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with BYT here, even if the term is smal, WP has articles about much smaller issues. --Striver 18:27, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Citations from mainstream works

• The Politics of Anti-Semitism, Alexander Cockburn, Jeffrey St. Clair, Norman Finkelstein, Edward Said, CounterPunch, 2003

Page 125: a radical political movement that grew out of the terrorism of the Judeo-Fascist and Mussolini-admirer Vladimir Jabotinsky... [14]

• Jewish Criticism of Zionism, Edward C. Corrigan, Middle East Policy Council Journal, Winter 1990-91

This paper quotes Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz, "renowned scholar of Judaism and philosophy and the editor of several volumes of the Encyclopedia Hebraica," as follows:

The big crisis of the Jewish people is that the overwhelming majority of the Jews genuinely desire to be Jewish -- but they have no content for their Judaism other than a piece of colored rag attached to the end of a pole and a military uniform. The consciousness and the desire to be Jewish did not vanish, rather they are transformed today into a Judeo-Nazi mentality. (Emphasis added.)

• Benevolence and Betrayal: Five Italian Jewish Families Under Fascism, Alexander Stille, Picador, 1991

page 22: In Italy, Jewish fascism was a real ideological movement, a mass phenomenon... [15]

• Inferiority Feelings: In the Individual and the Group, Oliver Brachfeld Routledge, 1951 (UK)

Page 256 - During his exile in Paris in 1937 he actually supported a kind of ‘Jewish fascism', although the idea was in clearest contrast to his upbringing... [16]

• The Jewish State: The Struggle for Israel's Soul, Yoram Hazony

On page 405, this book references William Zukerman's article, “The Menace of Jewish Fascism,” Nation, April 25, 1934. [17]

• Quotes from that article:

...The bulk of the Zionist movement gravitates toward fascism, although Zionists are mostly not aware of it, and the majority would indignantly deny that their pure, selfless nationalism, which wants nothing of others, or even that their "Great Zionism," as Jewish fascism often calls itself, has anything in common with the brutal fascism of Germany...

...The speculators, brokers, small shopkeepers, petty traders have found the Promised Land again...

...The grimness of the paradox is increased by the fact that Jewish fascism is in its origin, aims, and tactics more akin to the Teutonic brand of that movement than to the Italian...

...The party has an organized membership of 50,000...

...Worst of all, the countries overseas which before the war had absorbed the surplus Jewish population from Eastern Europe, and thus eased the situation, closed their doors to new immigration...

...It may sound like a paradox, but it is nevertheless a fact that the Jews, especially in Eastern Europe and Palestine, probably more than any other people except the Germans are stricken with the virus of fascism...

...Jews in Eastern Europe-which means primarily Poland, for in Soviet Russia Jews have found an altogether different solution to their problems-found themselves in a situation almost without parallel even in their long tragic history...

...it dominates Jewish public opinion in Poland, and sways Jewish sentiments all over the world...

...Not only is the uniform of the Jewish Fascist Party brown, but its driving force, like that of the Germans, is also a strong feeling of national wrong, and its source of inspiration is one of the treaties resulting from the World War...

...The movement, naturally, also has its Leader, a Journalist of great proficiency well versed in the art of stage dramatics, and its forces, like those of the Nazis, are also divided into storm troops (BrithTrumpeldor) and bodyguards {Brith-Chall...

...In addition, the anti-Jewish outburst in Germany has aggravated a tragedy which was hardly capable of further aggravation...

...Social enterprise is giving way to private adventure of a pernicious type...

...Jews have begun to turn to it with hopes and aspirations which neither the pre-war Zionists nor the framers of the Balfour Declaration ever envisaged...

...Under the guise of nationalistic grievances and demands, fascist sentiments can easily pass unnoticed, and they now do in Zionism... ...its backbone is the dying Jewish middle class, which is being mercilessly ground between the millstones of anti-Semitism and the post-war economic development...

...The Zionist movement, like all nationalist movements, is the most fertile field for fascism...

...Exactly the same disintegration and the same danger exist now within Jewry...

...To complete the comparison, Jewish fascism also advocates "revolutionary" action against both Marxists and a foreign government, and its forces are drilling under Polish military officers in preparation for some war known only to their leaders...

...Behind Palestine there is always Zionism, and that movement is so intricately interwoven with Jewish social life the world over that if it succumbs to fascism, a porthole is opened for fascist sentiments to flow in freely and flood every Jewish community...

The only one that actually uses the term "Judeofascist" is the first, from "The Politics of anti-Semitism", and even that is by "George Sunderland", apparently a pseudonym of someone who claims to be a White House staffer. Is that what you meant by "mainstream", one link to a pseudonym? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:36, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It's actully quite notable how much latent anti-semetism is circulating among the leftists. Klonimus 05:42, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Why this article deserves a new AfD vote

I created this section following the instructions of Doc who wrote [18]:

"Any argument for undeletion, or for a new article by this name, would not depend on the contents of the article, but on establishing, by fresh evidence, that the term itself was notable. Go, construct a case on the talk page - if you can make one (which I doubt) then request undeletion. The issue in question is not the article's content, but whether this term merits an article.--Doc ^ask?"

How this issue came up

For a short time, there existed an article Judeofascim [[19]]. It seems to have quietly existed as a redirect for some months, but within a day of having content added to it, the page was nominated for AfD and a week later it was gone. I have no idea what the content was, but have no reason to doubt it was an Unencyclopedic slur.

More recently, an article Judeofascism (term) was created by editors who believe that Islamofascism (term) should be deleted (an opinion I do not share). The new article lasted less than two days. [[20]] My involvement in this second article consisted of two edits: the first was to revert someone's redirect where I commented: "If you think its nonsense, put it up for AfD, don't unilaterally redirect" and the second was to nominate it for AfD myself [[21]] with the comment "Rv redirect, & nominate for AfD-this article deserves an up or down vote, plze stop redirecting."

At that time I was unaware of the previous existence of Judeofascism.

My nomination lasted approximately seven minutes before a speedy deletion by Doc.[[22]]

In my AfD nomination I wrote:

I believe this article deserves an up or down vote and a chance to be sourced & NPOV'd.

Nominator votes Weak keep. Article obviously needs improvement, but just cancelling without a vote or chance to improve it seems too much like censoring an unpopular POV.

I stand by the above comment, and although I don't care very much whether there is ever an article titled Judeofascism (term). I DO care about due WP process and that there should be even-handed treatment of controversial subjects.

So lets turn to the substance of the issue:

Is Judeofascism identical to Judeofascism (term)

Less than a week ago, SlimVirgin wrote on what was then the Islamofascism talk page the following:

I'm going to move this to Islamofascism (term) to hammer home that this page is about the WORD Islamofascism, and not whether the word actually refers to anything, because it's not our job to decide that. (And if it does refer to anything real, it has nothing to do with Hitler!)

I thought that was a good idea. I also believe its an argument for treating an AfD on Judeofascism (term) separately from the old AfD on Judeofascism.

Is "Judeofascism" (the term) widely enough used to warrant an article

1. Several examples of the usage of "Judeofascism" are given in the section[s] above.

2. If, as I believe, Judeofascism = "Jewish Fascism" the list of citations is much larger than the ones listed above this section, for example:

2(a). List of 34 books Googlebooks returns when searching for "Jewish Fascism" [23]

2(b). Excerpts from NYT articles using the term "Jewish Fascism"

2(b)(1) "The Revolt Of Israel's Center", The New York Times July 13, 2005, by THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

"What is playing out in Israel today is a huge drama in which this resurgent Israeli center, having awakened to just what a danger the extremist settlers pose for Israel's future, is finally confronting them. And the settlers, like long-indulged children who are finally being spanked, are becoming unhinged. This is a dangerous time because the settlers, who do not really respect the authority of the Israeli state, will try anything.

"When I was in Israel two weeks ago, a group of teenage settlers, inspired by a witches' brew of Jewish fascism and messianism, took over an abandoned Arab home next to Gush Katif and scrawled on the side in Hebrew: Muhammad Is a Pig. When the Palestinians next door saw it, they began stoning the house. Some settler boys got hold of a Palestinian teenager and started pounding him with rocks, an act the Israeli Army described as an attempted lynching. The boy was saved by an Israeli soldier and a journalist who dragged him behind a wall.""

2(b)(2) NYT Book Review, November 27, 1991, by HERBERT MITGANG of the book Benevolence and Betrayal Five Italian Jewish Families Under Fascism By Alexander Stille

""While I was researching the book," Mr. Stille reveals, "several Italian Jews tried to dissuade me from writing about the phenomenon of Jewish Fascism, out of a fear of stirring renewed anti-Semitism." Fortunately, he disagreed, deciding that their behavior during the Fascist era ran the full gamut from the foolish and contemptible to the wise and heroic. The result is "Benevolence and Betrayal," an achievement that deserves to stand next to the most insightful fiction about life and death under Fascism."

2(b)(2) NYT, December 14, 1986 SCHOLARS PRAISE ITALY'S ROLE IN HELPING JEWS IN WORLD WAR II BYLINE: By JOSEPH BERGER

"Though in retrospect it may seem puzzling, large numbers of Jews sympathized with the Fascist party in its early days just as did most middle-class Italians who were inspired by Mussolini's imperial dreams.

A Parisian writer, Alain Elkann, told the conference that a novel he has written on a Jewish Fascist was partially based on a distant uncle who supported Mussolini until the dictator's death. Even in the period of the anti-Jewish laws, Mr. Elkann said, the uncle believed that Mussolini, for pragmatic reasons, was being cooperative with Hitler and that at the end of the war he would restore Jewish rights."

2(b)(3) NYT, August 14, 1984 KAHANE IN ISRAELI PARLIAMENT AFTER DISPUTE OVER THE OATH, By JAMES FERON

"Outside the Parliament building, groups that do not normally become involved in politics as well as Israelis who have protested in the past against the occupation of the West Bank and the war in Lebanon joined in the protest demonstration. Most said they were frightened by the support that enabled Rabbi Kahane to be elected to Parliament. He received 26,000 votes.

"Shevah Weiss, a member of the Labor Alignment, said before the parliamentary ceremony began: This is my personal demonstration against Jewish fascism. I'm afraid Kahane is a symptom of a not-so-narrow phenomenon in Israeli society.

"Standing to next him, Gideon Spiro, a former paratrooper, said: Kahane did not just come from the sky. He says brutally what a lot of Israelis say quietly. He's a fruit of the occupation."

3. Use of the term by Russian political figure Gennady Zyuganov [24]

"Following this, at a November 7 Communist Rally, Zyuganov shared a platform with several party members who vowed to defend Makashov. And the major Communist daily newspaper Sovetskaya Rossiya published an article by its Editor in Chief on November 10 attacking "the loathsome doctrine of ‘Jewish fascism’" which is being created by a "handful of oligarchic mass media." Russian liberals, with several Jewish figures given as examples, were accused of "a dreadful genocide launched against the Russians which makes the Holocaust and the gas chambers seem pale by comparison." And on November 11, the Communists sent a letter to the government demanding oversight committees to regulate the media which reflect "Russian society in demographic, ethnic, political and other terms," and "pro-Israel interpretation." Thirteen Deputies signed a letter calling Makashov a "patriot" and claiming that Jewish bankers and politicians were humiliating Russians. "

4. Use of the term by Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi [25]

Speaking of "Uzi Cohen, a member of Ariel Sharon's right-wing party and a deputy mayor of the town of Raanana" the article reports:

"Cohen's racist ideas have drawn strong reactions from Palestinian leaders in Israel. Israeli Arab Knesset member Ahmad Taibi described Cohen as representing "Israel's ugly face".

"This man espouses Jewish fascism and he is trying to foster his venomous ideas, and I must say he is achieving remarkable success," Taibi told Aljazeera.net.

"The idea of ethnic cleansing is no longer confined to the far-right parties in Israel; many in the Likud support ethnic cleansing.""

unsigned comment by user:FRS

You'd have to find reputable sources using the term "Judeofascism" specifically. If Judeofascism (term) could exist, then so could Judeofascism. The reason the latter failed an AfD and is now failing its deletion review, is that credible sources don't use the term. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, would you agree with me that it is not a violation of WP:POINT to create a new page Jewish fascism? And does the source have to be "reputable" or merely "notable"?

I think Jewish fascism article could serve two encyclopedic purposes

1. provide information about WWII history that is not widely known (certain Jewish support for Mussolini)

2. illustrate, in a perfectly NPOV way, by comparison of the two articles, Islamofascism and Jewish fascism how various notable (or not so notable) figures line up on the use of these terms

Users of the term Islamofascism: George W Bush, Christopher Hitchens,Richard Webster,Clifford May,Nick Cohen

Opposed to its use (according to the WP article): Joseph Sobran,Juan Cole,Roxanne Euben,Silvio Berlusconi(Berlusconi's complaint is that it puts real fascists in a bad light)

Users of the term Jewish fascism: Thomas L. Friedman,Shevah Weiss,Gennady Zyuganov,Ahmad Taibi

Opposed to its use: Countless.

--FRS 22:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the article ends up getting called, if it starts with the historical reality that Jews collaborated with Mussolini, it will have the advantage of a) using the term "fascism" with something vaguely approaching accuracy, and b) describing actual, consciously understood and articulated political initiatives. These are two benchmarks that have thus far eluded Islamofascism. BrandonYusufToropov 23:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Brandon, I've said before that an article that explored links between Zionist groups and fascist groups in the '30s could be the subject of a real article (though "Judeofascism" could not be the name of it, because the term "Judeofascism" was never used then and is almost never used now). But I should point out that the main reason that the benchmarks you describe have thus far eluded "Islamofascism" has been that you have gone bonkers anytime Klonimus inserted pictures and discussion of collaboration between Muslim groups and the Nazis. I have basically agreed with you on this, because I think the term "Islamofascism" is not generally used to discuss that collaboration, however it's a bit rich of you to fight to get content removed from an article and then criticize the article for not including that very same content. Babajobu 04:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Point taken -- you are quite correct. BrandonYusufToropov 14:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Your involvement in this issue is WP:POINT, a policy violation. You wrote elsewhere of Judeofascism: "Delete. Deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrow," [26] but then tried to have it recreated just because others recreated Islamofascism. Shame. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• You know what? I'm getting just a little tired of you throwing that WP:POINT thing around. I disagree with your interpretation of WP:POINT. Accordingly, I believe I had and have a right to an opinion on this article. The fact that I disagree with you on certain issues does not, by definition, mean I'm disrupting Wikipedia, nor does it establish zones where I may not express my views.
• If you feel so strongly about all this, identify the diffs where you feel I've committed this offense, file a motion somewhere, and move on. On other pages, you should either engage, or ignore, the points I'm making. BrandonYusufToropov 02:26, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm getting a little tired of you too, as are many others, and your attacks on anyone who disagrees with you, your deletion of people's objections from your talk page, and your attempts to interrogate people. You're happy to dish it out but you don't seem to like it when someone does it back. I gave you a diff above and it's a classic example of WP:POINT, almost a definition of it. It's also interesting that it was this particular article you decided to resurrect when you were losing the argument over Islamofascism, when you could have picked on any other offensive page to make your point with. And don't tell me or anyone else to "move on." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

• Conveniently lost in the shuffle here is the fact that the vote you cited as evidence of my inconsistency here is precisely the same reasoning that just got rejected at the AfD for Islamofascism (term).

• Now either an editor can legitimately object to an article simply because it's a "Deeply bogus, pseudo-poli-sci rhetorical arrow," or he/she can't. If the answer is that that's not a legitimate objection, ever, and apparently that is the answer, rest assured that I and many other editors have now processed that. So we can all move on. But the implication that I don't get to post here seems out of line to me. Okay? BrandonYusufToropov 14:32, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Interestingly Juan Cole, who has criticised use of the term Islamofascist is not beyond using the 'F' word himself, at least as applied to Likud and Zionist Revisionism

"*A group of Israeli rabbis has issued a call for the Sharon government to cease its policy of cavalierly allowing the killing innocent civilians in the Occupied Territories in the course of its military operations against radical groups. They say such actions are inconsistent with the essence of the Jewish religion. Too right! Judaism has given us so much that is noble in ethical religion, and what the Likud is doing is an insult to that long and glorious tradition. Likud's real roots lie not in the Bible but in Zionist Revisionism of the Jabotinsky sort, which is frankly a kind of fascism."[27] FRS 15:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Undeletion review finished[28]

To no great surprise, article's deletion was overwhelmingly approved, without (imho) considering the merits of the argument made in the section just above. I wonder if creation of any of the following potential articles would be reviewed on the merits, instead of the mere endorsement of a speedy delete as happened here: Jewish fascism, Jewish Italian fascist sympathisers in WWII, List of modern Jewish political leaders referred to as Fascist, Neofascism allegations against modern Israeli political figures

In a world where, for better or worse, political discourse includes accusations of fascist tendancies against Neofascism#Clinton_Administration and Neofascism#Bush_Administration, not to mention some muslim radicals, and in an encyclopedia that is supposedly not censored, I think there should be space for one or more of these topics. --FRS 23:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• The article was already deleted; the new vote re-certified that deletion. Thus, the position you espouse was considered, and was rejected twice. The "sour grapes" implication of censorship and the hypothetical "potential articles" you propose amount to WP:POINT. One might wonder why someone such as yourself would be so interested in creation of a "Jewish Fascism" article. —LeFlyman 16:46, 4 December 2005 (UTC)