User:Beeblebrox/CERFC

General questions

These questions are intended to try to determine what you may consider the "baseline" between what should be considered "valid collegiate discourse" and what should be considered "violation of the civility policy" (incivility). Please be as specific as you can in your responses.

Written versus spoken communication

When one is physically present when speaking with another person, body language, intonation, setting, and other physical factors, can suggest the intent of words in a way that words written on a page cannot.

Collegiality

Example: if a person is having a casual conversation with friends over a table covered with beer glasses and one of them wishes to contest a point another has made they might prefect their remarks with "listen up asshole and I'll explain it to you." If they are smiling and raising a glass towards the person this remark is pointed, it can help the words to be taken in the lighthearted manner in which it was intended.

Should such interaction as noted in the example above be considered incivility in the collegiate, collaborative environment of Wikipedia? Should the talk page location matter (such as whether the discussion is on a user talk page, an article talk page, or Wikipedia project-space talk page)?

Reply:In all things related to behavior, context counts. I could say something like that to some users knowing full well they would take it as a joke. It would never be appropriate to speak to a newbie or really anyone you were not familiar with in such a manner.

Profanity

Should all profanity (such as the use of "bad words", "four letter words", "the Seven dirty words", etc.), be considered incivility?

Reply: Again, context counts. So, no, not every use of a "bad word" is incivility. "That's a good fucking article you wrote" is hardly offensive.

All caps/wiki markup

There is an established convention when using technology to communicate through a typed format that WRITING IN ALL CAPS is considered "yelling" and is generally not acceptable. Individuals also sometimes use italics bolding green or other colored text or even enlarged text or other formatting code to attempt to indicate intonation, or to otherwise emphasize their comments.

Should there be limits as to when this type of formatting should be used in a discussion? Is there any type of formatting which should never be acceptable in a discussion?

Reply: There are limits, but they need not be enforced. It is enough to gently remind a person who is being obnoxious that what they are doing is obnoxious.

Enforcement and sanctions

Responsibility for enforcement

Who is responsible for maintaining a civil environment for collegiate discussion? Should it be it the responsibility of administrators, the arbitration committee, the broader Wikipedia community, or some combination of these?

Reply: All of the above. the community needs to provide admins and arbs with clearer standards of what is tolerated and what is not if they expect any kind of enforcement. Is that easy? No it is not. But the situation we have now where standard fluctuate from one case to the next is not acceptable. Either we have enforceable standards of civility or we don't and it is just advice.

Appropriate sanctions

What sanctions, if any, do you think are appropriate for incivility? Should blocking be considered an appropriate response to incivility? Should topic banning or interaction banning be considered an appropriate response?

Reply: Depending on the severity and the rate of recurrence of gross incivility any one of those sanctions may be appropriate. Interaction banning makes me sad. It's like splitting up squabbling children on a playground. That many of those subject to such bans are adults who should have the self control to just shut up at some point is what makes it sad.

Context

Should the context of the situation be taken into account when considering whether to apply sanctions to the individual due to incivility?

Reply: Absolutely. There are some kinds of incivility that cannot be excused, ever, anywhere, such as hate speech based on race/religion/ethnicity/etc. The rest of it is a massive grey area. Also, one-off or rare outbursts are a normal and expected part of life for any emotionally functional person. It's the people who are like that all time that are a problem.

Severity

How severe should a single incident of incivility need to be to merit some sort of sanction?

Reply: Hate speech or threats of violence, no matter how far fetched, cannot be tolerated and even one such incident is one too many. Pretty much nothing else rates a sanction for a single incident not part of a demonstrable pattern.

Instances of incivility

Should multiple instances of incivility in the same discussion be considered one offense or several? If a user is civil most of the time, but occasionally has instances of incivility, should these incidents be excused? If so, how often should such incivility be excused?

Reply: When I wrote this question I wondered how I would answer it. It is probably one of the hardest questions in this whole thing. Honestly, I don't believe there is any way to specifically define how often is too often. Some users are drawn to more high-stress environments while others toil in obscurity on the back corners of WP and don't reveal that they are a hothead until someone reverts them. Context, again, is at least asimportant as what was actually said and how often they said it.

Weighing incivility and contributions

Should the quality and/or number of contributions an individual makes outside of discussions have any bearing on whether an individual should be sanctioned due to incivility? Should the incidents of incivility be taken on their own as a separate concern?

Reply: Or maybe this is the hardest question in the whole thing. It is certainly an are where there is vast disagreement. I would say it should be considered but that contributions do not excuse chronic, deliberate rudeness.

Outcry

In the past, when an individual has been blocked from editing due to "violating the civility policy" (incivility), there has, at times, been an outcry from others concerning the block, and sometimes the block has been overturned subsequent to that outcry.

In an effort to reduce incidences of such an outcry ("drama"), should incivility be deprecated as an appropriate reason for blocking an individual? Should admins instead be required to have a more specific reason (such as personal attacks, harassment of another user, etc.), when blocking a user for incivility?

Reply: In my three plus years as an admin I don't believe I have ever used "incivility" as a stand alone reason for blocking. A more specific, nuanced reasoning should be encouraged if not mandated.

AN/I prerequisite

Should a demonstrable consensus formed through discussion at WP:AN/I (or other appropriate forum) be required as a prerequisite to blocking an individual due to incivility? If so, should there be a minimum time frame for such discussions to remain open before the individual may be blocked?

Reply: Required? probably not. Good idea? Certainly, especially in the case of long-term users. At least 48 hours should pass in most cases before any action is taken unless the situation takes some drastic turn.

RFC prerequisite

A request for comment (RFC) gives the community the opportunity to discuss a behavioural concern (such as incivility) directly with the individual, with the intended goal of attempting to find a voluntary solution.

Should an RFC be required as a prerequisite for blocking a user of incivility? Should it be suggested and/or encouraged?

Reply: Again, requiring it is overly restrictive but it is an underused option (or at least it was until a few weeks ago) and provides an opportunity to arrive at a voluntary solution that may be more difficult to come to when one feels the imminent threat of blocking, as at ANI. It should be strongly encouraged when there is a chronic civility issue with a particular user. That such RFCs have never been opened on some of the most notorious of such users baffles me.

Personal Attacks

Requests for adminship

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship (RFA) is a place where an editor requests the additional tools and responsibilities of adminship. In the discussion concerning the specific request, each commenting editor is to convey whether (and why) they would (or would not) trust the requester with those tools and responsibilities. Due to this, typically the requester's actions, behaviour, and contributions are noted, evaluated, and sometimes discussed.

Due to the nature of RFA (a question of trusting an individual), should it be considered necessary for the standards concerning personal attacks be somewhat relaxed at RFA? What, if any, should be the limits to this? How personal is "too personal" at an RFA? What types of criticisms cross the line between being considered merely an evaluation of a candidate and being considered an unwarranted attack? Should comments considered to cross that line be left alone, stricken, moved to the talk page, or simply removed altogether?

Reply: RFA can be so good and so bad, sometimes at the same time. Some users provide very thoughtful, honest feedback, be it positive or negative. Some users provide useless superficial nonsense and petty bickering. But in the end it is the best process we have got for sorting out those who can and cannot hack it as admins. It probably should be a bit of a " torture test" as being an effective admin will bring more, and stupider, criticisms than even an RFA and we need to know the candidate can deal with it. However, base personal attacks have no mor e place there than they do anywhere else.

Attacking an idea

The Wikipedia community has a long tradition of not tolerating personal attacks. However, it may be difficult to differentiate whether an individual is commenting on a user's ideas or is commenting on the user themselves. The same is true concerning whether an individual may understand a particular idea.

How should this be determined? Should any of the following be considered a personal attack? Should any of these comments be considered the kind of incivility that we should not tolerate on Wikipedia?

"That idea is stupid"

"That is idiotic"

"That is yet another one of <username of proposer>'s stupid ideas and should be ignored"

"You don't understand/misunderstand"

"You aren't listening"

"You don't care about the idea"

Reply: As a person who has probably said every last thing on that list at some point I can hardly find them to be sanctionable.

Rate examples

In this section example comments will be presented. You are asked to evaluate each comment on the following scale:

1 = Always acceptable
2 = Usually acceptable
3 = Acceptability entirely dependent on the context of specific situation
4 = Usually not acceptable
5 = Never acceptable

Proposals or content discussions

I assume you realize how foolish this idea sounds to the rest of us

rating: 1

Typical of the foolishness I have come to expect from this user

rating: 3

After looking over your recent edits it is clear that you are incompetent.

rating: 3

Anyone with a username like that is obviously here for the wrong reasons

rating: 3

You seem to have a conflict of interest in that you appear to be interested in a nationalist point of view.

rating: 1

It is obvious that your purpose here is to promote your nationalist point of view.

rating: 1

You are clearly here to support your nationalist point of view, Wikipedia would be better off without you.

rating: 3

This is the stupidest proposal I have seen in a very long time.

rating: 1

Whoever proposed this should have their head examined

rating 4

I don't know how anyone could support such an idiotic proposal.

rating: 1

This proposal is retarded.

rating: 5

The person who initiated this discussion is a moron.

rating: 5

This proposal is crap.

rating: 1

This proposal is a waste of everyone's time.

rating 1

What a fucking waste this whole discussion has been

rating: 1

A shitty proposal from a shitty editor.

rating: 5

The OP is a clueless idiot.

rating 5

Please just stop talking, nobody is listening anyway.

rating: 1

Just shut up already.

rating: 3

File your sockpuppet investigation or STFU.

rating: 3

Shut your fucking mouth before you say something else stupid.

rating: 3

admin actions

The blocking admin has a long history of questionable judgements.

rating: 3

The blocking admin needs to be desysopped of this is representative of their decision making abilities.

rating 3

The blocking admin is well known as an abusive rule nazi.

rating: 4

I'm sure their admin cronies will just censor me like they do to anyone who points out the hypocrisy of all WP admins, but this was a terrible block.

rating 1

How could anyone with a brain in their head think it was ok to issue a block like this?

rating: 3

Possible trolling

Your comments look more like trolling to me.

rating: 3

Stop trolling or I will find an admin to block you.

rating: 3

All I can say about this user is "obvious troll is obvious".

rating: 3

Go troll somewhere else.

rating: 3

Somebody block this troll so those of us that are here in good faith can continue without them.

rating: 3

removal of comments

(Assume all removals were done by a single user and are not part of a suppression action for privacy, libel, etc)

Comment removed from conversation with edit summary "removed off topic trolling"

rating: 3

Comment removed from a conversation and replaced with <redacted> or {{RPA}}

rating 3

Entire discussion closed and/or collapsed using {{hat}} or other such formatting

rating: 3

Comment removed from a conversation and replaced with "redacted twattery, don't post here again" with posting users signature still attached

rating: 5

Comment removed from conversation and replaced with File:DoNotFeedTroll.svg

rating: 5

(I'm ashamed to admit that this one is based on me actually doing this to someone several years ago)

Enforcement scenarios

The general idea that Wikipedians should try to treat each other with a minimum of dignity and respect is widely accepted. Where we seem to have a serious problem is the enforcement or lack thereof of this ideal. This section will submit various scenarios and ask to you to suggest what an appropriate response would be. Possible options include:

ignoring it
warning the users involved
WP:RFC, WP:ANI, or other community discussions,
blocking, either indefinitely or for a set period of time
topic or interaction banning
Any other response you feel would be appropriate

Please bear in mind that what is being asked for is not what you believe would happen but what you believe should happen.

Scenario 1

Two users are in a dispute regarding the name of a particular article on a geographic region. The debate is long and convoluted, and the motivations of the two users unclear to those unfamiliar with the topic. They have not used any form of dispute resolution to resolve the content dispute. They have not edit warred in the article but the discussion on the talk page has gotten extremely long and seems to be devolving into the users accusing one another of having ethnic/nationalist motivations. One users has said "You only believe that because you were educated in the Fubarian school system which filled your head with their lies." To which the other user replies "That is exactly what I would expect from someone who live in Kerzbleckistan. Everyone knows that Fubaritol has always been part of our great empire. Only Kerzblecki fat heads believe it isn't. "

Response: These are horrible situations, and very difficult to intervene in if one does now know the intimate details of why the two sides hate each other. I tend, as I,often do, to take a "cut the bullshit" approach to such situations. Regardless of the reasons why the two sides feel the way they do this is not a place for ethnic/racial/religious/nationalist squabbles and insults. It just needs to be shut down. I would start with stern warnings and make it clear that page protection, blocking, etc are the next step if it does not stop immediately. Short blocks often get the point across and calm such conversations but a "shot across the bow" is usually warranted first.

Scenario 2

A long term user is blocked for edit warring. The proof that they did edit war is clear and obvious. On their talk page they are hosting a discussion regarding the block but are not formally appealing it using the unblock template. The blocking admin, seeing this discussion of their actions, attempts to explain that they are not making a value judgement on the appropriateness of the edits, just doing their job by enforcing the edit warring policy. The blocked user removes the admins actual comments but leaves their signature attached to the phrase "asshattery removed". Several of the blocked users friends comment on what a dumb block it is, how the blocking admin is a disgrace, that they should be desysopped, and sp on. The blocking admin comments again, asking that they either be allowed to participate in the discussion or that their comments and all discussion of them be removed entirely, not replaced with an insult with his signature attached to it. The blocked user again removes the admin's comments and adds the same insulting phrase in their place.

Response: The blocked user should be advised that they can either remove the comments entirely or let them stand. If they do it again they should have talk page access revoked (by a third party, not he original blocking admin) for the duration of their block. The blocking admin should probably just ignore this person in the future, that's what I did...

Scenario 3

A user is apparently an expert in the field of eighteenth-century horse drawn carriages. Practically every word Wikipedia has on this subject was written by them. Their content contributions are generally above reproach. Unfortunately they are also extremely abrasive in interpersonal conversations. They routinely tell any user who disagrees with them to fuck off, that they were obviously educated in a barn, that their ignorance is matched only by what a douchebag they are, and so forth. They also exhibit a tendency to actually be on the correct side of an argument when they are at their most abrasive. They apparently believe that this excuses their condescension and insults. One such incident is brought up at WP:ANI. It is approximately the fifteenth time such an incident has occurred. Again, the user is making excellent content contributions and is probably right as to the facts of the actual dispute, but they have verbally abused the user who disagrees with them, insulting their intelligence and using profanity. An admin decides to block them for chronic incivility about three hours into the conversation at the noticeboard.

Reply: Hey, is there an elephant in this room or is it just me? I don't know that I have any more of an answer than the community as a whole does. We don't know what to make of a user who is one hand so helpful in content areas and on the other overtly, deliberately rude and abrasive at every opportunity. I think we should force them to attend Wikimania. let them meet some of he people they so enjoy insulting and see how fun it is face-to-face to belittle everyone that you think is not as smart as you. Or, more realistically, why has there never been a user RFC On this person, whoever they may be? it might actually work to show this person the real harm their condescension and insults are doing to this project despite the real help their content work provides.

Scenario 4

Users A and B are in a dispute. They have already stated their positions many times each. As previously uninvolved users begin commenting on the situation user A stops commenting on the relevant talk page. User B opens a thread on user A's user talk page relating to the dispute and challenging user A's position. User A posts a reply indicating they feel they have stated their position enough times and they do not see any purpose in continuing. User B replies, asking for more details about some aspect of the dispute. User A closes the discussion on their talk page and in both a closing comment and their edit summary they say "User B please stop posting here." User B posts again anyway. User A removes their comments and in their edit summary they write "Stay the fuck off my fucking talk page, LIKE I SAID ALREADY."

Response User:Beeblebrox/fuck off

Scenario 5

A user is unfailingly civil in their on-wiki interactions with other users. They have never been blocked. Yet it is discovered that on an off-wiki forum dedicated to discussing Wikipedia they constantly make grossly insulting profane remarks about other WP users. Another user emails them asking about this discrepancy, and they receive an email reply through the Wikipedia email system that is equally insulting and profane. When the issue is brought up at WP:ANI the user is again perfectly polite. They openly acknowledge that they are in fact the user making the comments on the off-wiki forum, and that they sent an insulting email. They feel none of that is relevant as their on-wiki communication has been above reproach.

Response As I much as I hate two-faced backstabbers there is nothing here that can or should be sanctioned except for the abusive email. I think we, as a community, would be a lot better off if we ignored nearly everything on the WP-hater websites. However, once in a while they do serve as a source of legitimate criticisms of Wp processes and content. I would consider outing on an offsite forum to be something that could be considered sanctionable here but that is about it. The rude user is almost certainly a creep of some kind and should be watched closely and warned not to send abusive emails again, but that's it.

Scenario 6

(Please bear in mind that this is a hypothetical scenario, not a description of the current situation)

The Wikipedia community is in a time of crisis. Arguments about civility are leading to more and more disruption and the project seems in danger of losing many long time contributors as a result. In desperation, the community decides to appoint one user to modify WP:CIVIL in any way they see fit in order to resolve these issues and restore order. In their wisdom they select you as that person.

Response Did you know the Chinese use the same word for crisis as they do for opportunity? That may not be true, I got it from an episode of the Simpsons, Anyway, obviously the community is super smart for picking me for the role, so half the problem is resolved already. Allright, allright, I'll try and give a serious response.

I would actually bar "incivility" as a stand-alone reason for blocking. It is too vague. Specific reasons must be given in all cases.
Long-term users should almost always be given the opportunity to defend themselves and/or take corrective action before an incivility block is issued, especially an indefinite one. Most ANI discussions on such blocks would be speedily closed and the reporting user advised to file a user RFC instead. That requires them to present actual evidence instead of just slinging mud. It requires work, and though and this hopefully would reduce the number of thoughtless bullshit at ANI.
"Civility policing" would need to be curtailed. It creates as many of not more problems than it solves. Users who endlessly berate others for criticizing an idea or using adult language once in a while need to have it made clear to them that they are not helping and it would be better if they just shut up unless there is clear evidence of a pattern of deliberate, long-term incivility not just the occaisional use of strong language or harsh criticism of genuinely bad idea. Redaction of talk comments would only be used for material that qualifies for RevDel or Oversight.
In Second Life they have something akin to a lawless free-fire zone where the normal rules of behavior are suspended. Maybe we should have a "venting area" for users close to a blowout to use. It could be deleted regularly instead of being archived. That's pretty nutty but it just might work.
We need to acknowledge that we are clueless as to how to handle the category of user who is a great contributor of content but an asshole in every other regard. A special commission or something should be funded by the WMF, seriously, to do real research into what an appropriate response to such users is because the community can't seem to tell its head from its ass on this topic. This lack of consistency has made it difficult to the point of near impossibility for ArbCom to deal with it either as they are expected to take their lead from the community. Or maybe this RFC will solve everything and the lion will lay down with the lamb...

Comments

Please use this section for any additional comments, observations, recommendations, etc.

I would like to thank everyone who participated, and to extend my special thanks to whoever ends up evaluating all these replies. This is one of the biggest problems facing Wikipedia and will never be fully resolved, but hopefully this process will help at least a little bit. If you need anything you know where to find me. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)