Template talk:User sandbox+

Requested move 5 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawing this, as it seems that the section below addresses my needs. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 21:37, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

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• Template:create sandbox subpage level → Template:Article page template/library/group
• Template:Create sandbox subpage item → Template:Article page template/library/item
• Template:Article page template class/Article template library → Template:Article page template/library

– Template organization; these are only used directly on Template:Article page template class/Article template library, which itself is connected to the {{Article page template}} family. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 00:19, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

@ManosHacker: {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 00:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

There is coding inside that creates the paths of templates to be called. They are not called directly. As some templates do not seem to be linked to each other, moving them to different names breaks functionality.   ManosHacker ^talk 00:32, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Could you please explain that further? {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 00:40, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The central template is self-adaptive to where it resides (user space or main space, for example) and behaves differently. It behaves differently when the page does not exist yet and also if it has been created in user space or main space, no matter where it currently resides. On top of these, things appear or hide or display different messages or different functionality is enabled. There are nesting limitations in template code that do not allow to do everything programmatically, so I have three different templates that are almost identical: Template:Custom page template (user),Template:Custom_page_template_(program) and Template:Create_sandbox_subpage_item in the fear of crossing the limit. I welcome you to change of naming, I also wish for a more compact code.   ManosHacker ^talk 00:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

And this means that these specific templates can't be moved because ... As fair as I can tell, the name of these templates is not determined progamatically. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 01:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

There is an Editnotice regarding delayed safesubst that is only to appear in Article page templates edits, not assistive templates under the same name.   ManosHacker ^talk 02:25, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Regarding [Template:Article page template class/Article template library], libraries are being created by declaring them (as classes), and all belong in the same template space. This is "Template:Article page template class" for the time being. A better name for this space is welcome. Please avoid Etitnotice conflict here, too.   ManosHacker ^talk 06:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Editnotice conflict can be avoided by using plural, i.e. "Article page templates" instead of 'Article page template".   ManosHacker ^talk 08:07, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but that defeats the point of this requested move, which is to arrange these internal templates as subpages of their base templa tes, and some having a "s" at the end doesn't do that. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Editnotice conflict has a solution. By wrappping editnotice between {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{BASEPAGENAME}} | and }}, the templates names proposed above do not get the editnotice. If implemented this way (or any similar way like titleparts), the naming of the two templates proposed (not global library itself move) is fine for me.   ManosHacker ^talk 20:23, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Re-structure naming

visually edit table

Template	Previous name	Explanation
Assistive
Template:Collapse-mobile		collapsible functionality, original from meta, without show/hide that diplays well in mobiles, even if always expanded
Template:Help-collapsible		collapsible help functionality, supporting nested help levels
Template:Smallbox-mobile	Template:Sandbox smallbox	tiny message box, for inline use, that does not hide in mobile view
Template:Invisible		smallbox-mobile, which is only visible in user space used to display inline messages while the page is still a sandbox, i.e. end of article, so newbies do not modify functional section headers (i.e. References) to use as content section headers.
Template:Delay safesubst		code substitution, in two save steps, which displays and behaves well in user sandbox+ preview
Optical help
Template:Key press
Template:Visual edit
Template:TabButton
Template:BlueButton
Template:WhiteButton
Template:VeButton
Sandbox
Template:User sandbox+		base template that detects space (i.e. main / user / user sub-sandbox), edit mode or not, and page creation origin space, and adapts functionality in central sandbox of user it displays a list of sub-sandboxes of the user and gives the option to click'n'create sub-sandboxes in a user sub-sandbox it gives the option to foolproof click'n'move the sandmoxed page to article space in main (article) space it hides itself if the host pages was originally created in user space it displays in creation messagebox if the page was started directly in main space
Template:User sandbox+/doc		template documentation
Template:User sandbox+/preload		default page content for creation of user's main sandbox
Template:User sandbox+/create page	Template:Create sandbox subpage	handles new page creation centrally embedds help adapts creation mode and functionality according to parameters given
Template:User sandbox+/create page/from library	Template:Create sandbox subpage item , Template:Custom page template (program)	page creation from library of article templates if page template does not exist (is only declared) it prompts for its creation first also prompts for help page creation of article template, to provide support for delayed substitution merge of two templates
Template:User sandbox+/create page/from user palette	Template:Custom page template (user)	page creation from user's palette of page templates if page template does not exist (is only declared) it prompts for its creation first
Template:User sandbox+/create page/new page instructions (useve)	Template:Create sandbox subpage item/New page instructions (useve)	instructions during page creation, for VE
Template:User sandbox+/create page/new page instructions (usece)	Template:Create sandbox subpage item/New page instructions (usece)	instructions during page creation, for CE
Template:User sandbox+/flush page	Template:Flush sub-sandbox	instructions to hide a sub-sandbox form central sandbox list is enabled inside a sub-sandbox it should be replaced by a button that makes the page a redirect, putting text on its top, using prependtext as wiki code editing is not user friendly for newbies or non-computer-literate better yet, if movind a page from other spaces to user space was forbidden for non admins, sandbox (and only sandbox) page delete might be good to be allowed in user space
Template:User sandbox+/move page to article	Template:Move sandbox to article	foolproof move of a user sandbox to main (article) space is enabled inside a sub-sandbox after move, the page is not displayed any more in the user's central sandbox list leaves a redirect behind - moving a page from user space to other spaces should have the option not to leave a redirect behind
Article page templates
Template:Article page templates/display/group	Template:Create sandbox subpage level
Template:Article page templates/user custom/host page matrix	Template:Custom page templates/User hostpage matrix
Template:Article page templates/user custom/display available	Template:Custom page templates/existing
Template:Article page templates/create/matrix	Template:Article page templates matrix
Template:Article page templates/create/talkpage matrix	Template:Article page templates talkpage matrix
Template:Article page templates/empty page	Template:Article page template/empty page
Template:Article page templates/generic article	Template:Article page template/generic article
Template:Article page templates/generic article (codeedit)	Template:Article page template/generic article (codeedit)
Template talk:Article page templates/empty page	Template talk:Article page template/empty page
Template talk:Article page templates/generic article	Template talk:Article page template/generic article
Template talk:Article page templates/generic article (codeedit)	Template talk:Article page template/generic article (codeedit)
Template:Article page templates/libraries/create/matrix	Template:Article page template class/preload
Template:Article page templates/libraries/Article template library	Template:Article page template class/Article template library
Group template editnotice
Template:Editnotices/Group/Template:Article page templates	Template:Editnotices/Group/Template:Article page template
Template:Article page templates	Template:Article page template

How about this structure? Is plural more accurate? Files are the same (renamed) and two of them are merged into one.   ManosHacker ^talk 17:40, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not clear to me what corresponds to what in the format you've provided. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 21:36, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

A few initial comments (more to come in a couple hours). 1: You should expand "useve" and "usece"/"codeedit" into "Visual editor" and "Wikitext editor", and mention the editor in all cases where there are separate templates for both editors. 2: Many of the template names you suggested in the {{Article page templates}} family technichally meet G8, as {{Article page templates/display}}, {{article page templates/libraries}} and {{Article page templates/libraries}} don't exist. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 12:39, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello Pppery, thank you for your reply, I will be able to fully respond in 7-8 hours from now. 1 is a technical issue as I am trying to narrow down the number of if statements inside the template code, so I am using the Inputbox parameter name itself. This anorthodox approach is a hack and annoys me too. If I have to use it now, to overcome template restrictions, it sure has to be noted to change after porting to real (non-template) code. The other thing is I have used plural (templates instead of template), so the links are red, but we can go back to singular as I do not have a strong preference on this. I will study more and reply later on.46.198.215.34 (talk) 13:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

You misunderstood my point 2 about singular versus plural. {{Article page template/display}} won't exist either. (I, in fact, prefer plural). {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 19:57, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

{{User sandbox+/create page/from library}} should be part of the {{Article page templates}} family, because it is used on what will be {{Article page templates/libraries/Article template library}}.

{{Article page templates/libraries/Article template library}} is the most tautological name I have ever seen. Prune it to {{Article page templates/libraries/main}} at least, likewise moving up {{Article page templates/libraries/create/matrix}} up one level to {{Article page templates/libraries/preload}} ("preload" name for consistency with all the other templates with similar purpose)

{{Article page templates/user custom/display available}} should be moved up one level to {{Template:Article page templates/list}}, because it also lists the standard templates. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 20:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I was in a hurry this morning and I missed point 2.

• I can overcome tautology by using a special label I need to show for main library, instead of the last part of the page name, which is to be used for the rest of the libraries.
• G8 issue derives from Editnotice issue, as the solution I proposed was to add one more part to the name of the page, to be excluded from editnotice. But this is one more hack. As editnotice is meant to be only for page templates, Is there an acceptable way to exclude the rest of the pages from receiving it on their edit?
• Matrix is indeed funny, I will switch back to preload.

Thanks once again Pppery.   ManosHacker ^talk 21:33, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

• Redo the subst method; discard the editnotices and replace {{safesubst:...}} with {{«name here»|...}}, using a template that I just created in {{X1}}, which expands to a substitution of itself in template namespace and in all other namespaces expands to a substitution of the template specified in its arguments in other namespaces. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
• Other templates, like {{Submit an edit request/preload}} have subst in preload without needing to manually escape it every time. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

A mother template (matrix) generates other preloads (article page templates) for creating articles. In mother templates <!-- --> is used to preserve the code and is asked to be removed while saving an article page template based on it, starting a delayed safesubst. I will give the proposed code a try to see its behavior.   ManosHacker ^talk 12:44, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Pppery your last proposal is a saver, it works fantastic. Delay safesubst is not needed, nor the editnotices. I begin restructure.   ManosHacker ^talk 13:10, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Nor the "template talk" pages. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:58, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes. The lack of need to create the talk page also means we have the three page creation templates closer to become one template only. The two are already merged due to your {{{4|{{{3}}}}}} side_effect/charm meant to save from duplicate name declerations in libraries.   ManosHacker ^talk 20:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Posted new proposed table of names above. Still somewhat unsure about what the two templates I've marked with question marks should be. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 23:14, 8 March 2018 (UTC) I don't understand what {{Custom page templates/User hostpage matrix}} does, but it seems like it should be part of the {{User sandbox+}} family. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 03:25, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Or this:

if nesting limit allows now, after the latest solutions, the merging of the three creation templates.   ManosHacker ^talk 09:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Does not seem better to me, even if it lets you use one template rather than two. {{User sandbox+/new page instructions(ve/ce)}} does not deserve being moved and using _ names on things looks very hackish it me. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 20:02, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Nor does "pages" look at all like a useful template layer or sticking in pointless constant-text templates like {{Article template/pages path}} that are not at all better than if statements. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 20:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

• Do you find it better to use "Article page templates" or "Article templates" as the base?
• "_" turns to a (not annoying, I think and almost invisible) space and it is only there to make these templates sort together, away from the rest of mass templates (in fact I have not tried yet to see if the space sorting separation works). Is there a better character (like $) to use to distinguish them?
• Doesn't the template family need pages with lists of libraries and pages?
• If statements reduce the number of supported article types. Optimizations that avoid parsing are needed as far as template code is used. I will try the new code to find the limit, in order to decide.   ManosHacker ^talk 20:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

  I myself started a requested move for this purpose earlier, so the answer should be obvious

  I don't see "these templates sort[ing] together, away from the rest of mass templates" as useful at all, so can't help you there.

  Don't see why such meta-lists are needed.

  "If statements reduce the number of supported article types" . Unless you at some point want to expand the dichotomy of defined in general library vs. defined by a user, I don't see any advantage whatsoever of {{Article template/pages path/{{{1}}} over {{#ifeq:{{{1}}}|user|Template:Article templates/pages/|User:{{ROOTPAGENAME}}/Custom page templates/}} {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 21:01, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Avoiding_MediaWiki_expansion_depth_limit is a real thing. I embedded the help that was a separate page, embedded a table in main template instead of using a templated box, removed nesting wherever possible and got rid of parsing functions, to have more than 50 page templates in library. This rules the project as long as template code is used. I will build both template hacks and code and compare by doubling the main library. I also wish to get rid of the hacks.
• Sorting is to provide equity. It assists users to be hinted to avoid a system page, as well as programmers to easily find a system page.
• I would like to use two lists (pages and libraries), for assisting the developers of such pages. Should we better use categories, instead of page lists?
• There are similatities in the naming we both chose. I will follow the initial "Article page templates" base for the structure. Thank you Pppery.   ManosHacker ^talk 08:51, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Template	Previous name
Sandbox
Template:User sandbox+
Template:User sandbox+/doc
Template:User sandbox+/preload
Template:User sandbox+/create	Template:Create sandbox subpage
Template:User sandbox+/new page instructions (ve)	Template:Create sandbox subpage item/New page instructions (useve)
Template:User sandbox+/new page instructions (ce)	Template:Create sandbox subpage item/New page instructions (usece)
Template:User sandbox+/flush page	Template:Flush sub-sandbox
Template:User sandbox+/move page to article	Template:Move sandbox to article
Article page templates
Template:Article page templates/group	Template:Create sandbox subpage level
Template:Article page templates/create	Template:Create sandbox subpage item Template:Custom page template (program) Template:Custom page template (user)
Template:Article page templates/preload	Template:Article page templates matrix
Template:Article page templates/empty page	Template:Article page template/empty page
Template:Article page templates/generic article	Template:Article page template/generic article
Template:Article page templates/generic article (codeedit)	Template:Article page template/generic article (codeedit)
Template:Article page templates/libraries/preload	Template:Article page template class/preload
Template:Article page templates/libraries/main	Template:Article page template class/Article template library
Template:Article page templates/libraries/user palette preload	Template:Custom page templates/User hostpage matrix
Template:Article page templates/libraries/user available list	Template:Custom page templates/existing

I can start with this. I am not sure if user palette templates are to be below libraries or not.   ManosHacker ^talk 09:18, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

1. #ifeq statements and calls to template with dynamic names consume the same number of expansion depth slots. If you add more options, you could use a #switch.
2. I'm not suggesting pages and libraries should be conflated, just that pages don't need to have a separate subpage, whereas libraries still do, separating them
3. Generally, everything you've moved is good, except I still disagree with the /path templates, which I've thus nominated for deletion.
4. You need to finish the job, by moving the {{Template:Article page template class/Medicine}} to {{Article page templates/libraries/Medicine}} and the other Template:Article page template subpages to Template:Article page templates. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
5. My other requested move, suggesting to drop the work "page", remains.

{{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

I wrote the above comment before you removed the path templates, even though it was saved after {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:10, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Pppery you have been very helpful. I am about to move the rest, plus fix the code inside templates, as well as users who have non-working versions of custom palettes. If you please have a look here: Template talk:Article page template to solve this as well. Thank you.   ManosHacker ^talk 16:58, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

In regard with the nesting of parsing functions, the test showed that a total (default lib + custom lib + user palette) of about 120 Article page templates can be supported.   ManosHacker ^talk 17:28, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

Please change content model of Template:User sandbox+/hoverhighlight.js to Javascript rather than Wikitext. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 23:24, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:19, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Additional Templates

Is there a way to have additional templates appear here by default or parts of templates? I am preparing an editathon and we will be working with new users on urban parks, so I wanted the Template:Infobox park and some general park parts to appear automatically, similar to how they do for some other natural areas. --- FULBERT (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Here you are, dear FULBERT: Template:Article templates/Park. It now resides inside general library (places section). You can edit the template page directly (use wiki code editor to avoid mistakes) to adapt it for your editathon. Use the help code below for your trainees, if you like, I am now preparing also the videos for preparing editathons.

Article Nursery Garden
Install
Seed article in user space
Locate seeded article
Edit article
Move completed article to main space Extras   Add hover highlighting

   ManosHacker ^talk 18:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks ManosHacker for your help with this; it is exactly what we will need! Your video tutorials are also excellent!! Many thanks, and hoping to help you directly with these one day, too!! --- FULBERT (talk) 20:33, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

One follow-up ManosHacker; do you suggest I manually add the {{user sandbox+}} directly to the new user sandbox pages myself before the actual session, if possible, to make it easier for them to start? --- FULBERT (talk) 20:36, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• Yes FULBERT, by all means it saves time. Some might have used the code editor and others the visual editor during their last edit, so instructions might get confusing in enwiki. It is also proven that the + sign is not added correctly by everyone, even if it is demonstrated using a projector.   ManosHacker ^talk 20:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• Another thing is that if accounts are new (i.e. created during the editathon), they cannot move the page themselves to main space, in case they complete the article. An autoconfirmed account can move the page for them to get the article up, by pressing their blue move button. It would be nice to demonstrate this to all participants using a projector, so the creator gets the credit (and the applause). The creator also gets the statistics of article creation and its first edits and bytes, as recorded in page's history, and only the page move, after the article is finished, is recorded to be made by another account.   ManosHacker ^talk 08:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Great to know! This will be my first time using these, so if I press the Move button on the article on their User page, they will still get the credit for the article itself, correct? --- FULBERT (talk) 11:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you will only appear at some time in the article history. Let's find out how easy it is or not for the team to work with the tool. I wish you the best!   ManosHacker ^talk 21:25, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Combining the functions of {{User sandbox+}} and {{preloaddraft}}

@ManosHacker: I only just came across this template set. Great work! If you've not seen it yet {{preloaddraft}} comes at the same problem from a slightly different angle (redlink lists, see origins in this signpost article). It looks as though the Category:Preloaddraft templates and Template:Article templates should be combined, and possible the general workings and syntax of both systems so that they're as intuitive as possible for users. What do you think? T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 05:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Evolution and evolvability: thank you for bringing preloaddraft here, I was not aware of it. The idea of combining user sandbox+ article template libraries with red links has been in my mind for some years now. I expressed it in the greek community during the discussions for interface admins (translation here). Template code has restrictions and user sandbox+ template can hold up to 200 article types, so we have to move to real coding here.   ManosHacker ^talk 18:44, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@ManosHacker: Yes, I suspected that there'd eventually have to be some LUA involved. Similarly only 200 occurrences of the preloaddraft template can be included on a single page (probably due to the same technical restriction) which has been a limitation for longer redlink lists. Hopefully the functionalities can be combined sensibly. What do you think of the templates for biographies? They could easily be moved to follow your 'Template:Article templates/XYZ' format (the only duplicate is 'artist'). I also think including non-transcluded categories in the templates would be useful to separated different types (e.g. medical, biography, other). It could also be useful to include links for people to also start populating the wikidata item and use {{infobox person/wikidata}}. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 23:25, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Evolution and evolvability: this is great job. I have been coding more in greek wiki in order to include descriptions and (potentially) lists of red link articles inside the main library, where I had the restriction that plain red links would open autonomus and not with preload control. Have a look here or its translation (where sections are already expanded and adding of text within the structure is directly visible). It would be most useful to include red link article lists there and of course fill in the gaps for biografies and everything else, as well as structuring a more useful library. I am collaborating with experts on their field for this but they are not wiki experts. I have used the tool with secondary education disabled students and we already have our first articles in greek wiki. Looking beyond the template code, have a look here.   ManosHacker ^talk 03:13, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@ManosHacker: 100% agree on that draft grant proposal. Let me know when you submit it and I'll gladly endorse. Such a system has been needed for over a decade even for simple pages, and is made even more vital from the increasing sophistication of infoboxes and other templates. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 03:35, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Just a note, I've also commented on the possible relevance of structured forms to these two templates on the community wishlist. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 04:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi T.Shafee(Evo&Evo), thank you for your comment there, I wish it will help. I have used my greek structured library to break down long red link lists into smaller ones, thematically organized. By simplifying your code to adapt the user sandbox+ functionality, 500 red links per page are already working and more seem possible in case an optional parameter (that I have placed) is omitted. I have also simplified the interface. Have a look here: following "Μέρη" > "Σπήλαιο" > "Επιλογή από λίστα" you get here where there are more than 500 link entries for caves. It is also interesting to follow "Πολιτιστική κληρονομιά" > "Αρχαιολογικός χώρος" to see an embedded guide (in Greek) for arcaiological place articles.   ManosHacker ^talk 07:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)