Template talk:United Kingdom Special Forces

Proposal to add special operations-capable

@Dormskirk: I added special operations-capable to this template using "Related" as a group title similar to {{Aust SF}}. I thought that this may be a suitable compromise for {{British Army Special Forces}} that Coldstreamer20 created last month. The British Army Special Forces template has essentially the same information as {{United Kingdom Special Forces}}. It duplicates it and is on several of the same articles. Regards,--Melbguy05 (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that duplication is not helpful. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@Purijj: You reverted my revert of 13tez's edit that had added the Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop to the template. Your edit summary was "they are, they have the skillset of such". The Ministry of Defence's command paper released in 2021 Defence in a Competitive Age uses the term special operations-capable forces. The special operations-capable forces are the Ranger Regiment and the Future Commando Force. The United States Marine Corps (USMC) uses the term special operations capable for their Marine Air-Ground Task Force the Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). MEU(SOC) is a term used to indicate when Marine Special Operations Forces (MARSOF) have been tasked to operate with a specific MEU. The Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop are not special operations-capable forces.--Melbguy05 (talk) 11:30, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

References

"Other SOF" subgroup

I have added the Pathfinder platoon, Brigade Patrol Troop/Surveillance and Reconnisance Squadron, and Mountain Leader Training Cadre within a new subgroup "Other SOF" within the "Related" group. This is because, as was correctly pointed out, they aren't termed "special operations capable". This language is used in Defence in a Competitive Age only to refer to the Future Commando Force and Ranger Regiment/ASOB. They are, however, SOF units outside of UKSF - hence why I created this new subgroup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13tez (talk • contribs) 20:21, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

@13tez: Special operations forces (SOF) is a term that is used interchangeably with special forces. Using SOF for these units is the same as labelling them a special forces unit. Do any of the three sources that you have provided state that they are a special forces unit or special operations forces? The Royal Marines article only uses "elite team" and "specialist team". regards--Melbguy05 (talk) 12:54, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment.

Re: your first point, I agree that "SOF" and "special forces" are generally interchangable. From previous discussion here and here, and edits to List_of_military_special_forces_units#United_Kingdom, however, I think the consensus is that British SOF units that are not part of UKSF should not be termed "special forces". I think this is because doing so can be interpreted to imply they are part of the UKSF directorate, require passing UKSF selection, etc. The "List of military special forces units" article previously included non-UKSF SOF units and that started an edit war, with different people thinking they should or should not be included there. It now only includes units within UKSF (though this became the case after I made the changes to this template IIRC).

I added the "Other SOF" section because I think the units involved are still relevant to the template (being SOF). At the same time, I also tried to indicate that they fall outside UKSF while doing so, so as to avoid any semantical objections. Maybe there's a clearer name for the subgroup, such as "non-UKSF SOF"?

Re: your second point, I think my references in the above comment could have been better. I didn't add any to the template itself because there weren't sources for any other units, but if I had I probably would have chosen stronger references than in the comment above, and included quotes. I wanted some quick sources to show my general point.

Blakeley's book on the Pathfinders does not directly define them as SOF or special forces, as far as I can tell. It does, however, describe their selection course and unique role and level of training, detailing how its akin to and modelled on the SAS in many respects. I think, by definition, this qualifies them as SOF.

Mountain leaders, found in the MLTC and BPT/SRS, are similar in also having to undergo a long and arduous selection and training process before taking on a ISTAR role that conventional forces cannot fulfill. This is detailed in Boswell's book, though again I can't see any direct description of them being a SOF/special forces unit in there either. 13tez (talk) 18:35, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@13tez: My understanding, is that the Pathfinder Platoon and the Brigade Patrol Troop (BTP) are responsible for medium range reconnaissance. I changed the title of the group from "Other Special Operations Forces" to "Reconnaissance units". I may be wrong; I don't believe that the MLTC has an operational role. It is training unit. The BTP was formed from the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre (what is now the MLTC) to provide an operational role. Using SOF will always be confusing as it is used interchangeably with SF. It is for example commonly used in NATO.

I couldn't find any sources that describe the Maritime Interdiction Flight, 815 Naval Air Squadron as SF / SOF. There is very little information on the flight only a brief mention of "Maritime Counter Terrorism". regards,--Melbguy05 (talk) 03:09, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

@Melbguy05 thanks for your reply.

I think that's fairly accurate; both perform reconnisance in wartime in a similar fashion to the SAS/SBS. In the Falklands War, the mountain leaders swapped and took over some patrols from the SAS, a pattern which has continued since, so they are very much comparable with UKSF in this regard. Since they both have arduous and extensive training and selection pipelines and perform missions conventional units cannot, I think they qualify as SOF. I think choosing how to label them is a separate question.

My understanding is that the BPT was indeed created from the cadre to give them a reconnisance-based operational role. There's a lot of overlap between mountain leaders/MLTC/BPT/SRS etc, however, both in individuals being in multiple of those groups and people referring to them interchangably at times, so I'm not sure how and when to draw distinctions between them.

I agree the SF/SOF debate and semantics are difficult to resolve because, by dictionary definition, the terms are synonymous but the presence of units/organisations called "SF" in the UK and US means there is debate as to whether they are in practice. Some wider consensus may be required here going forward.

Maritime Counter Terrorism (MCT) is the specialist role of the SBS in UKSF, in the same way as the land-based domestic CT is the role fulfilled by the SAS. Different Fleet Air Arm units seem to have assisted in MCT missions in the past, including the CHF and 815 NAS's MCT/MI Flight. In a way these units are equivalent to No. 658 Squadron AAC, who assist the SAS with land-based domestic CT. 13tez (talk) 00:43, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

References

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92.117.255.142 (talk) 10:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)