Template talk:Professional wrestling sidebar

Should "notable people" be split into two seperate lists; promoters and performers?

@Czello: @Mt.FijiBoiz: @Dustin5StarMemphisoYeah0:

Currently the "Notable People" section is already formatted so that all promoters are at the top and all performers are at the bottom. As this list is already the most populated section, one could argue it could benefit from formalising that division and splitting them into two lists. Do you agree or disagree?

I think the only issue, if we did divide it, would be individuals such as Paul Levesque/Triple H, Jeff Jarrett, Atsushi Onita, Giant Baba etc who are/were both notable performers and promoters. If we split the "Notable people" list into two lists, should those individuals be listed in both lists, or just the category that was considered their "primary" one? CeltBrowne (talk) 23:16, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

While I initially thought that the "Notable people" section was best organized by promoters/bookers on top and in-ring performers on the bottom, I am starting to think otherwise. In my opinion, there is too much overlap between the two categories to split the section into two or even continue to organize the currently existing unified section in the manner of placing promoters/bookers on top and in-ring performers on bottom. I think it would be best to keep one "Notable people" section but organize it by alphabetical order. Dustin5StarMemphisoYeah0 17:58, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Even though it leaves room open for bickering, I feel like chronological is better for the Notable people section than alphabetical. I've tested/previewed how it looks alphabetical and I find it jumbled and difficult to parse.

Keeping the status quo is fine, but I'd still be interested to hear the thoughts of the other two pinged users, who may currently be unavailable due to the time of year. CeltBrowne (talk) 01:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that chronological order is the best way to organize the section, rather than alphabetically. But I think we should remove the distinction between promoters and wrestlers. Right now Ed Lewis is separated from Billy Sandow and Toots Mondt, despite all three being members of the highly influential Gold Dust Trio. This separation seems to be because Lewis was primarily a wrestler and Sandow and Toots were primarily promoters, but Lewis did promote and both Sandow and Toots wrestled. The separation makes no sense to me. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with the removal of the distinctions - there's too much cross-overs between the various roles in the professional wrestling industry to try to make distinctions between various roles. Also the consensus amongst the active editors of the editors to arrange by chronological order instead of alphabetical order. I'll edit the template to reflect the consensus. Dustin5StarMemphisoYeah0 (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with keeping them as one, as it's rare to find a notable wrestler who hasn't held another position in or related to wrestling (e.g. podcasting, booking). Секретное общество (talk) 04:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Notable people to add.

I recently had an edit that had been reverted some-what due to cluttering. I understand it completely, however there are some things quite wrong with the edit, in my opinion. It involves wrestlers being added to the notable wrestlers tab. Although some of them can be understandably taken off, some of my suggestions feel like they had been taken off for poor reasons.

The biggest examples of which, for me, include the following:

Promotions - DDT Pro-Wrestling

1970s and 1980s - The British Bulldogs, The Crush Gals, Gran Hamada, Johnny Saint, Jumbo Tsuruta, Yoshiaki Fujiwara

1990s - Big Van Vader

2000s - Adam "Edge" Copeland, The Hardy Boyz, Naomichi Marufuji

2010s and 2020s - Becky Lynch, Charlotte Flair, Jon Moxley, Seth Rollins, Will Ospreay

I look forward to take each case separately in the talk page, particularly when it comes to how much influence they've had on the wrestling business. Please consider them as such, and not with any bias. Thank you. Frippinator (talk) 23:53, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• DDT is currently included in the promotion list
• The 1970s/1980s section already includes 22 figures and The 1990s section already includes 21 figures. I think a section is getting too big at the 15 names mark, and is going out of control at the 20 mark, so that's a square to circle (if you'll pardon the pun) when it comes to adding yet more names.
• When it comes to the 2010s/2020s, I think we should be very cautious because once you include one "iffy" figure, other editors are going to try and argue "You put iffy figure X in, so surely iffy figure Y must also go in!". While I would like to see more women included in the list, as far as western women go, I don't think the "Women's Evolution" and subsequently success of women can be attributed to any one woman. This makes things difficult because then you have to sort out who was the most influential between women such as Flair, Lynch, Banks, Bayley, Rousey, Ripley, Morgan, Bliss, etc etc etc and arguments can be made for all of them.
• I think listing people as a "unit" should be avoided as it only serves to add more text to an already cluttered field
• I was a massive fan of Marufuji and KENTA in the 2000s (I was lucky enough to be able to see NOAH on the Wrestling Channel), and their inclusion helps avoid the list being too American-centric, but I'm not sure they were the most notable Japanese figures of the 2000s. It'd be good to get another person who is well versed in Japanese wrestling history to comment.

CeltBrowne (talk) 00:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

For me, personally, Marufuji has a profound influence on pro wrestling due to the style he presented to both Japanese fans and to Western fans (shouts to the Wrestling Channel, of course, but also to tape collectors and distributors to streaming sites). If you'd see popular moves today such as the Shiranui, the diving Moonsault Slam (a-la credits to The S.A.T.) and the curb stomp (Rollins, of-course!), they'd all be traced down based upon Marufuji. Also with his style of King's Road fusing with some notable aspects of Hamada-style Lucharesu, it makes him a unique blend and someone that was a considerable credit to independent wrestlers at the same time period of which he was most sought in the tape collecting world.

I agree with the unit listing. Although having special regards to factions is considered in other articles, doing it in a field like the Pro wrestling one is just too much for it to handle.

I also appreciate the pun! Real good stuff. Frippinator (talk) 02:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think influencing other people's movesets is a good benchmark for notability, otherwise people like Nova would be contenders.

I think we have to go with who reliable, secondary sources and who the industry itself thinks are notable. So for example someone who is both in the WWE Hall of Fame and the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Hall of Fame is someone who it is not controversial to call notable. CeltBrowne (talk) 03:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't really that much of the point. Meant to word it at least a bit differently. It's in special regards to how the person's style transcends to wrestlers both in Japan and in the West.

Also, I forgot to add onto your comment: It'd be good to get another person who is well versed in Japanese wrestling history to comment. I actually happen to be a bit of a historian and have been in key interest to puroresu for almost a decade, so I've definitely seen some stuff. From what I can personally say in those regards, I think that it would be suffice to say that Naomichi Marufuji is among the most influential modern puroresu stars, especially with the reasons that I had listed. KENTA would be within range of that as well, however with his recognition in terms of pre-WWE standards coming in as pretty much thinner than Marufuji's to some extent, I can't really list him off as such to be as influential as they were to be.

There can also be numerous factors to include someone into a list like this as well. I fully agree with your point at the end. Frippinator (talk) 03:57, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

especially with the reasons that I had listed

The only reason you've listed so far is their in-ring influence on other stars though, which I've already said is not a good benchmark.

The WON Hall of Fame includes in-ring influence on other wrestlers as one of several critiea for deciding who is deserving to go in. Neither Gran Hamada nor Marufuji is in that Hall of Fame (as of yet at any rate).

Without reliable, secondary sources, this is where we get into subjective opinions. We can't base the list off what you or I personally like or rate highly. As per every thing else on Wikipedia, it has to be based off what experts in the field would say. CeltBrowne (talk) 04:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)