Template talk:Norman Dukes

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France

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British Monarchs

"The equally widely-held belief that [the British monarch] is Duke of Normandy is even more fantastic. All claims to that style on the part of the English Crown were surrendered when, by the Treaty of Paris in 1259, Henry III recognised the French conquest of the Duchy, and they have never been resumed. Even had the title of Duke of Normandy survived apart from actual possession and sovereignty of the Duchy, there could be no lineal claim to it by the present Royal House. The vicissitudes of the descent of the English Crown have been such that any such shadowy claim would lie elsewhere than in this Royal House.

"Patriotic inhabitants of the Channel Islands – or the Norman Isles, as that stalwart islander the late Lord Portsea preferred to call them – will stoutly resist this doctrine, but I fear their case is hopeless. The Channel Isles are an apanage of the English and not of the Norman ducal Crown. They are a remnant of the Duchy retained by the English Crown when the sovereignty of the mainland portion of the Duchy was conceded to France, but their retention implies no right or claim to the ducal style."

—British Titles by Valentine Heywood, 1951; pp.5–6

So why does this template exist? —Tamfang (talk) 00:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The British relinquished claims to mainland Normandy only, the Channel Islands were at that time part of the territory of Normandy but being islands the claims were not relinquished when they agreed the treaty as such they continued to own a part of 'Normandy' and as such may lay claim to the title. While they don't own Normandy the ruler of the channel island is known as Duke of Nomrandy as it is recongnised as a continuation of the line.

As to why this template exists it exists for the same reason as every other template similar to it exists. Whether or not in the end there is consensus on whether or not the British monarchs should be on the list that would still be no reason to delete the template. The Quill (talk) 08:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see that any of this refutes anything in the quoted passage. Has any English monarch since 1259 used or claimed the ducal title? (Other than refraining from telling Channel Islanders that they're wrong to toast the "Duke".) —Tamfang (talk) 01:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I'll take this to Talk:Duke of Normandy. —Tamfang (talk) 04:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Channel Islands are part of Normandy not Enlgand and yes it is one of her majestys titles (but is of course not mentioned in her royal style as it is only a dukedom and not a regal style)

The Quill (talk) 16:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does either Bailiwick use a formula such as "H.M. the Duke" in its formal acts? —Tamfang (talk) 20:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

The numbering used on this template is original research. For example, William IV of the United Kingdom is never referred to as "William V, Duke of Normandy". DrKiernan (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that they are not refered to by that title is because they only become Duke once they become monarch and therefore that title is superseeded. However that is the numeral that should be used when in reference to any monarch as Duke of Normandy. The Quill (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So, it is admitted as OR. Str1977 ^(talk) 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More precisely, I think, WP:SYN. —~ Tamfang (talk) 20:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Template content

The current content is not sensible. I understand that the English/British monarchs use the title because of their possession of the Channel Islands. No problem with that. But they shouln't fill up more than half of the template when the actual Dukes of Normandy proper are mostly missing. All the Kings of France that ruled Normandy should be included as well. Finally, there is currently no indication that Henry V and Henry VI of England were again in control of Normandy proper. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]