Template talk:LGBT in Japan

Yaoi

This seems relevant here, so please explain any removal. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

With regard to this revert by User:Leoxaq and this comment on my talk, I disagree. Yaoi is related to LGBT context; it is mentioned in a number of sources on homosexuality in Japan, ex. Mark J. McLelland (12 October 2012). Male Homosexuality in Modern Japan: Cultural Myths and Social Realities. Routledge. pp. 55–. ISBN 978-1-135-79129-2. Retrieved 28 August 2013., Kazumi Nagaike (3 May 2012). Fantasies of Cross-dressing: Japanese Women Write Male-Male Erotica. BRILL. pp. 6–. ISBN 978-90-04-21695-2. Retrieved 28 August 2013., Jeet Heer; Kent Worcester (1 January 2009). A Comics Studies Reader. Univ. Press of Mississippi. pp. 246–. ISBN 978-1-60473-109-5. Retrieved 28 August 2013. to name just three. It is certainly a concept relevant to this template. (There then is also the fact that yaoi is mentioned in the Homosexuality in Japan article, and homosexuality in yaoi article; and Category:Yaoi is a subcategory to a number of LGBT categories.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not include yaoi

Yaoi has nothing to do with LGBT. Yaoi is cltures of the hetero women, by the hetero women, for the hetero women. It is inappropriate to write in Template:LGBT in Japan. ヤオイ(Yaoi)は1970年代の日本で、異性愛女性に生み出されたものです。ja:森鴎外の娘のja:森茉莉が、書いたのが一番最初ですが。基本的にヤオイは異性愛者の文化です。ゲイ男性の多くはヤオイは読みません。

Yaoi was produced in Japan by a heterowoman. It is Mori Mari first to have written. Yaoi is culture of the heterosexuals. Most of gay men do not read Yaoi. It has nothing to do with the culture of LGBT. Yaoi is a cltures of the heterosexuals, by the heterosexuals, for the heterosexuals. It isn't related topic. Yaio is an imaginary product of the hetero woman. It is different from the real homosexual. source:「オトコノコのためのボーイフレド」（1986,Japan）P72[1].--Leoxaq (talk) 04:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)--Leoxaq (talk) 05:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The template is not "LGBT culture in Japan". It's "LGBT in Japan". Yaoi is about gay men. It doesn't matter who the target audience is. このテンプレートが日本のＬＧＢＴです。日本のＬＧＢＴの文化じゃない。ヤオイの内容が同性愛と同性愛者ですよ。対象顧客層が関係ない。 (Note: Japanese text is the same as English text). EvergreenFir (talk) 04:31, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

違います。LGBTとは性的少数者のことを指します。Yaoiは性的多数者のものであり、LGBTではありません。No. LGBT is the meaning of the sexual minority. Yaoi is a thing of the people from sexual majority. It is unrelated to the LGBT concept. --Leoxaq (talk) 05:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Yaoi is not about gay men. Yaoi is about gay by the hetero woman's imagination.--Leoxaq (talk) 05:19, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

First, no one is suggesting that yaoi is a synonim for heterosexuality. It is, however, an LGBT-related concept, and it very much has a place on the Japanese LGBT list of related topics. That it doesn't is your unsourced opinion, and it is clearly contradicted by sources I've cited above. Our policy is WP:V, with WP:NOR ridding in closely. Please check them out. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

There is the source. It is written "Yaoi is unrelated to LGBT" on the "オトコノコのためのボーイフレンド".

source:「オトコノコのためのボーイフレド(Otokonokono tameno boy friend)」（1986,Japan）P72[2] Leoxaq (talk • contribs) 16:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)--Leoxaq (talk) 17:14, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, it does not matter if yaoi is representative of LGBT in Japan, if gay men consume it, or if straight women consume it. Yaoi is part of Japanese culture and it is about gay men, however realistic or fictional it may be. It is clearly an LGBT related issue and belongs in the template. There is already a paragraph on yaoi explaining that the main consumers of it are women. That is sufficient to address your concern. To be frank, if this continues I will file an incident report. 日本語を使う要れば、翻訳が要れば、聞いてください。 EvergreenFir (talk) 17:18, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Yaoiは異性愛女性の想像の産物です。現実の同性愛や同性愛者とはなんら関係はありません。日本の文化の一部であることは確かでも、LGBTとは関係ありません。LGBTとは性的少数者のことです。YaoiはLGBTではなく、架空の存在です。(Yaoi is an imaginary product of the heterosexually oriented woman. There are no any relations with the real homosexuality and homosexual. It is sure that it is a part of the Japanese culture and has nothing to do with LGBT. LGBT is a sexual minority. Yaoi is imaginary existence not LGBT.)

＞it is about gay men

いいえ、そうではありません。Yaoiは異性愛が基本であり、片方の男性が綺麗な男性に置き換えられただけです。実際にYaoiが描いているのは異性愛の世界です。そのことはフェミニストのja:上野千鶴子が言及しています。Yaoiは異性愛そのものです。(No, it isn't. In Yaoi, heterosexuality was basic, and one man was only rearranged by a beautiful man. It is really the heterosexually oriented world that Yaoi draws. Chizuko Ueno of the lady's man mentions it. Yaoi is heterosexuality itself.)

私は、出典を出して編集しています。保護依頼を出すのは私の方です。（I give the source and edit it. It is me to give a protection request.）--Leoxaq (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Even if it is imaginary, it is still part of LGBT in Japan. Yaoi is part of the LGBT narrative in Japan. However, the existence of words like 腐男子 demonstrate that men, whether gay or not, do consume yaoi. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:18, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

腐男子なんて、極めて例外的な存在です。Yaoiは異性愛者が、異性愛を描いています。Yaoiは、男女の恋愛の女性Characterを、綺麗な男性に置き換えています。私は、「YaoiはLGBTとは無関係」と書かれた証拠を提示しています。（腐男子 is an extremely exceptional person. A heterosexual describes heterosexuality in Yaoi. Yaoi replaces woman Character of the love of the man and woman with a beautiful man. I show evidence written, "Yaoi is unrelated to LGBT".）--Leoxaq (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

In the first place it objects that hetero woman turns sexual desire to the gay. It is sex violence to the gay men by the hetero woman.--Leoxaq (talk) 18:45, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This is going on for too long. Leoxaq, you have continued to disrupt this template on frankly specious grounds. That's one source for your assertion, and even that is flimsy; if anything, you've just made a case for yaoi being an anagram for gender-bending and intergender relations, which is, again, LGBT-relevant. EvergreenFir, I'll second your motion to file a report if this happens again. --RayneVanDunem (talk) 20:31, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I filed a report for edit warring (3RR) on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay I want to throw in my two cents here like I did on the yaoi articles. I see three problems with the argument first, gay men especially in the west DO read Yoai. Secondly, rarely Yaoi is written by men, and thirdly if Yoai isn't LGBT related and is purely made by heterosexual women for heterosexual women it is a form of appropriation and exploitation similar to the way comedians in America used blackface to exploit African Americans. So Yoai must either be gay or a form of heterosexist exploitation. My personal opinion although I don't think it matters is that it is gay and when written by heterosexual women they are trying to fight a heterosexist society. However if you truly believe it is not LGBT it must appropriation and therefore exploitation.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 07:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

ゲイレベレーションはゲイの当事者が担うべきです。異性愛女性がゲイに口出しするのは、越権です。異性愛女性によるゲイ差別には変わりません。（The person concerned of the gay should carry the gay rebbe military ration. It is abuse of confidence that a heterosexually oriented woman interferes in a gay. I do not turn into discrimination against gay by the heterosexually oriented woman.）--121.103.6.203 (talk) 14:34, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yaoi ≠ Gay

上の方が言うことに同意します。ヤオイは男性同性愛とはいえません。2人のキャラクターの身長差、性役割など、古典的なほど異性愛男女の関係を踏襲しており、実際のゲイとは微塵も共通点もありません。異性愛者の女が極めて都合よく、勝手に妄想してつくり出したのがヤイオに過ぎません。ヤイオは除去してください。--121.103.6.203 (talk) 14:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

やめなさい。アメリカにヤオイがＬＧＢＴの内だよ。EvergreenFir (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)