Template talk:Estonia Presidents

Ilves is not yet president. Please be patient.

Estonian SSR

Leaders of the Estnian SSR cannot be called "heads of state", because that term only applies to independent countries. I suggest removing them from here and making a separate template for them. -- Rain74 10:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

"Leaders"

I've restored the First Secretaries, and here's why: in conformity with all other SSR templates, we have one box for PMs, and another for "leaders". Of course the latter term is unscientific, and in the Estonian SSR the de jure head of state was the Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, but de facto power lay with the First Secretary, and a sort of consensus dictates that it's more important to inform readers (at a glance) who was really in charge, than who was theoretically heading the republic. Biruitorul 17:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to weigh in that it's rather inappropriate to characterize both presidents and first secretaries together as "leaders" of Estonia (with the Estonian flag). That's more appropriate to a list of who had de facto control over Estonian territory regardless of de jure considerations.

  For Latvia, (legitimate) Presidents and First Secretaries are now simply split to their own templates to stop mixing apples and oranges.

  "Acting" presidents is a bit more complicated.

• I've removed them Latvia--in particular, there were a whole bunch during Latvia's first independence, to be accurate the template would become unwieldy. The acting in "exile" wasn't really correct either as there was no formal underground/exile government and sovereign continuity had already been vested in Zariņš in London. (At some point I'll probably make a "list of" acting presidents as a separate article.)
• Estonia, as the only state with a formal government in exile, better merits including "acting" with regard to continuity in the template. But that said, it should reflect the position of the Estonian government on its presidents. Anything else belongs in a list (where it would be educational as it would also include appropriate links to various relevant articles).

  Covering all bases is OK for people who are fully familiar with a situation, they won't be confused. But covering all bases where people may be seeing information for the first time in the end is more likely to cause confusion than enlightenment. —PētersV (talk) 15:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Short version of the above = "less is more" :-) PētersV (talk) 15:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

As with Latvia, I don't object to the First Secretaries being split out, as long as they get their own template. Biruitorul (talk) 05:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Completely agreed. I'd prefer to hear from our Estonian contingent before doing a template split (Presidents and First Secretaries). Perhaps we might solicit some input on the general topic on the notice board. —PētersV (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree too, so have done the split. Martintg (talk) 05:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This page clearly doesn't show the Presidents of Estonia, but the Heads of State of Estonia. I propose leaving only Päts, Meri, Rüütel and Ilves. There should be a separate template for prime ministers and State Elders, who both mean the head of government. H2ppyme (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

State Elders were both head of state and head of the government at the same time. Note that the official translation of "Riigivanem" is "Head of State" [1]. Martintg (talk) 20:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but this is a template for Presidents, not heads of state. President is a form of head of state just like Riigivanem. Estonia has however, had only four presidents. French Kings and Presidents are both heads of state, but the kings are not presidents and vice versa.H2ppyme (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

True. Perhaps we need a template for "Head of State" too. Martintg (talk) 03:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is one for Heads of government, that has all the prime ministers and Riigivanemad..H2ppyme (talk) 07:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I've added the "Prime Minister in the Duties of the President" since they are constitutionally acting Presidents. Martintg (talk) 03:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I understand, that they should be here, but I think we should make it clearer somehow, that there have only been 4 presidents in office. Any third opinion??H2ppyme (talk) 12:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Well, considering you have the Prime Minister in the duties of the "Elder of State", later in the duties of "President", this is one case where I would stretch the definition to note that the equivalent of President prior to 1937 was the Elder of State. It's a less proper solution (at least to me) to mix Prime Ministers and Elders of State elsewhere as Heads of Government.
   As for who to include or not, the official Estonian government site does list all the Prime Ministers in the Duties of the President, so we should include those here a well. There's no appearance on that list of Johannes Vares, so he should be a footnote. When in doubt, a government's official list of its heads of states should prevail.
   I would also support having separate templates for President and Elder of State (with a mutual see also). —PētersV (talk) 22:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Heads of government template includes all the 'heads of government' (meaning "The Head of Government is the chief officer of the executive branch of a government"). As far as I understand, both Elders of State and Prime Minister are the government leaders.

   As for the president template, I know the president webpage doesn't include Vares, but I think it's mainly because the Estonian government says Vares's rule was illegal. But legal or illegal, until August 6 1940, Estonia (or Estonian SSR) was an independent state and it's de facto leader was J. Vares, who president Päts gave his President duties over to on July 21 (or 22 according to other sources).

   President was only a name for a Head of State (just like PM is a name for head of government), If needed, there could be another template for heads of State of Estonia, but I don't really support it. State elders had both the duties of President and Prime Minister, but in no way they were ever presidents. I don't even support adding the Prime Ministers in the duties of President here, and I'd only include the four presidents, but since the exile PM's are already here, Vares should be too - H2ppyme (talk) 08:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I've not seen any sources that state Vares ever acted in the duties of the President. 203.35.135.136 (talk) 01:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Point taken on Elder of State being rather like the President + Prime Minister. Whatever is decided in adjusting the template(s), WP should mirror the official Estonian information as accurately as possible (here). As for Vares, he would not appear to be included. He was no more a prime minister of a sovereign Estonia than Kirhensteins a president or prime minister of a sovereign Latvia, having been appointed under Soviet duress. —PētersV (talk) 02:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree in regard to Vares. Martintg (talk) 00:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

New changes

It seems that a suspicious user SeNeKa has changed this template, and included also the Soviet heads of state. I decided to remove them, since they were not the heads of state of the Republic of Estonia. Yet, I decided to keep some of his changes, that the State Elders should be kept here, since there was no President at that time and they were both the heads of state and the heads of government. And please, if you are planning some major edits to this template, discuss them here first. H2ppyme (talk) 14:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

"Template:EstonianPMs" and "Template:Estonia Presidents"

What's the point of having two templates with almost the same information? In most cases they are overlapping and pretty confusing. I'd suggest merging them. Flying Saucer (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)