Jump to content

Template talk:Death date and age/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Missing day of birth

I know the month and year that Tommy Arkesden was born, and I know the exact day that he died. However, if I leave out the day of birth from this template, it appears broken, and the {{death year and age}} template is useless to me as I have his exact date of death. How can I solve this problem? – PeeJay 12:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Calculate the age manually and enter that and the dates in raw text. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 08:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Calendar error

Death dates for persons born before the adoption of the Gregorian calendar will often be entered in the Julian calendar. This template will then link the displayed date, which will be rendered according to the preferences set by the reader (if any). Some readers will have selected the ISO-8601 format. Thus some readers will see a date, like January 7, 1502, with no statement or implication about the calendar, so the reader will have to read the article to determine the calendar. Other readers will see 1502-01-07, and "know" (perhaps mistakenly) that the date is in the proleptic Gregorian calendar. The formatting of dates also imposes date formatting in the rest of the article upon any editor who wishes to use this template for the sake of consistency, so this template can't be used in any article where the editors have a consensus against autoformatting. A specific article where this was a problem is Pope Pius V. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:10, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Categories

Is there a reason why this template (and others in the same family) doesn't add the pages on which it appears to the relevant "Category:YYYY births" and "Category:YYYY deaths" ? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 08:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This template not just used in biographies but in articles about groups of people such as sports teams. See here. - PatLeahy (talk) 15:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Would it be worth mentioning that in the documentation, given that the question has arisen previously? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Done. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Parameters

Are the 'year' / 'month' / 'day' parameters used for anything? They aren't included in the template documentation and if used in place of the numbered parameters they would actually use the same date for both birth and death... therefor always calculating death at age 0. Unless there is some undocumented purpose to these I think they should be removed. I already simplified the conditions from things like: {{{1|{{{year|{{{1}}}}}}}}} to {{{1|{{{year}}}}}}... the only difference between the two being that if BOTH values are unset the old method would evaluate to the TEXT {{{1}}} while the new method evaluates to {{{year}}}... both of which cause an error. If either the 1 or year parameter is set then the two strings evaluate exactly the same way. --CBD 11:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed these parameters for now. If they are found to actually be used anywhere we can evaluate and document them if need be. The template is now much smaller. --CBD 19:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

BC / AD

What about people who were born in BC? And what about people born in BC who died in AD? — The Man in Question (gesprec) · (forðung) 07:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Use {{death-date and age}} -J JMesserly (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Abuse

After seeing this template abused one too many times, I have added a note to the usage instructions warning people not to use this template when the person's exact date of birth or death is disputed or unknown. Kaldari (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Error, sort of

For some reason, this now gives .0000000000000000 after the age. This needs to be fixed. :/ Octane [improve me?] 05:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


Jeffs date of birth

Jeff Fehring was born on 21st April 1956 not 1955 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.208.64.186 (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

purge cache

{{editprotected}} No edit requested, please purge the cache because the template is not showing up in Category:Templates generating microformat date and age. Thanks -J JMesserly (talk) 20:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I did it, but you should be able to do this yourself in future by following [1]. Regards. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Nope, that doesn't work for those of us that don't have a certain bit flag on our user accounts. Maybe because the purge imposes a server hit due the refresh of all pages using the template? Who knows. Anyway, could you also do [2] too? Thanks. -J JMesserly (talk) 20:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"Aged" is for wine and cheese. "Age" is for humans.

Whoever is responsible for creating this template that automatically generates the word "aged" followed by the age at death, should give some thought to changing it to "age". For example, 86 is the age of a person at death. The person was not aged for 86 years in a storage cellar, in most cases. I know this may seem strange to the new internet generation who mimic whatever the other illiterates are doing online, but "age" is the appropriate term for obituaries. If in doubt, check the AP journalist's style book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.6.125.76 (talk) 05:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree!Bugefun (talk) 00:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I doubly agree. I haven't seen such abuse of the English language until I started editing Wikipedia. Just because you read it in some newspaper, magazine or Web site, written and edited by former high school "C" students, doesn't make it so. —QuicksilverT @ 14:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Editprotected request

{{Editprotected}} Please change "aged" to "age", per above discussion and corresponding discussion at Wikiproject Templates. Intelligentsium 00:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

See Template talk:Death date and age/Archive 1#Aged. — RockMFR 00:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, forgot to search archives. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. Intelligentsium 21:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Not all dictionaries are correct. Wiktionary, for example, has of late become a cesspool of creative redefinition of the English language; it has gotten so bad in some areas that I pretty much ignore it in toto. —QuicksilverT @ 14:13, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Template: Death-date and age?

What is the relation of this template to the confusingly similarly worded, but much less used, Template:Death-date and age? I'm not confident enough about these templates to propose a merge myself, but don't like the fact they're worded so similarly without explanation of their relation. Dsp13 (talk) 16:58, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request

{{editprotected}} hi sorry to bother you but the place where john george adair is interred is at lea church in killenard co.laoise ireland and his wife is interred in ashes at the church she built for him Tomkav24 (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Copied to John George Adair talk page. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 23:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Eastman09, 4 April 2010

Moved to Talk:P. D. Eastman Avicennasis @ 03:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Query

Is there any way to have this template work for inputting both month and years for birth/death dates? Thanks Connormah (talk | contribs) 01:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Parameter for exact ages

Would there be any objection to adding a parameter to give exact ages in years and days? E.g. 

{{death date and age|exact=y|2002|1|3|1889|1|22}}

would give:

January 3, 2002(2002-01-03) (aged 112)

Already coded in the sandbox and it seems to work fine. This would be useful for people who are notable for their age (e.g. Antonio Todde). PC78 (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 74.129.144.42, 8 January 2011

{{edit protected}} She did not pass away, she's currently in critical condition. AOL reported it and also on Fox News, but webpages have not been corrected yet.

SOURCE: http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrielle-giffords-shot-in-arizona/?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk5%7C35360

74.129.144.42 (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Wrong page. Belongs on Talk:Gabrielle Giffords. Favonian (talk) 20:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

A possible new template?

I have come up with an idea for a possible new template dealing with lifespans. I would like to present the Death date and approximate age template. That would address people with lifespans that consist of an exact date of death and a year of birth without a month or day available or known. An example of what I'm talking about concerns the lifespan of Giuliano de' Medici (1453–1478), who was born in 1453, date unknown, and who died on April 26, 1478. I will also supply a visual of what I am thinking of below.

{{Death date and approximate age|yyyy|mm|dd|yyyy}}

Of course, death date and approximate age is, so far, merely a working title for the template, and I would be welcome to any suggestions for other names. I feel that this template is necessary for cases such as Giuliano de' Medici so that he and others with similarly described lifespans can have their own template as well. I'm not totally confident in my own abilities to program it myself, so if someone could do that, I would appreciate that. Thoughts? Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 06:31, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

PS: Since this isn't the part of Wikipedia that I'm an expert in, am I bringing this up in an appropriate talk page or is somewhere else more ideal? Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 06:34, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Metadata

Please change

span class="dday" to span class="dday deathdate" to take account of the parameter name used in the forthcoming extension to the vCard standard. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Done, see here. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:36, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
That's great; many thanks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:19, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Use "age" instead of "aged"

{{editprotected}} Please change "aged" to "age". This template occurs in adjective contexts where "(age 70)" is more correct than "(aged 70)". For example, you would say, "___ died in 2010 at age 70", not "...in 2010 at aged 70", or even "...in 2010 aged 70". See also Chicago Manual of Style Section 5.220. Thank you. 67.6.163.68 (talk) 07:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I think we should check that there is consensus for his, before a change affecting so many pages is made. There are no instances of the template that render as "...died in 2010 at aged 70", are there? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 January 2012

Frank Cook exMP correct date of death is 10th January 2012, not 11th as you state, the 11th, ie today is the date the news was publicly announced, go back and check your source

217.43.250.204 (talk) 18:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done: This is the talk page for discussing changes to the {{Death date and age}} template. Problems with individual articles should be noted at the talk page specific to that article. Assuming that the article in question is Frank Cook, its talk page is Talk:Frank Cook. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Aged or Age

I notice that it always says "Aged" for somebodies age at death. Isn't it better to say age? Aged sounds like cheese. Could I be wrong?Longinus876 (talk) 12:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Math bug

hi;

there seems to be a flaw in the math for calculating age @ death.

for the page David Holt (actor)

it produces this result:

David Jack Holt Born August 14, 1927 Jacksonville, Florida Died March 10, 2003 (aged 76) San Juan Capistrano, California Other names David Holt

now, he was in his 76th YEAR, when he died, BUT he died before his 76th BIRTHDAY; therefore, by standard western/international conventions he was 75 years old (plus x-days), NOT "76".

this NEEDS to be fixed, as a priorty bug; if not, the template needs to be "decomissioned" until it is. it is NOT acceptable to have (persistent, systematic) factual errors like this in the "articlespace".

i note that the last comment on this talkpage is several years old, & i'm a little bit worried that no one is going to read this in a timely manner; so if i don't get a reply in the next day or so, i'll repost elsewhere.

i thank you in advance, for your time & attention in this matter.

Lx 121 (talk) 02:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Well the death date in the infobox doesn't match the death date in the body text, so I'm not sure which is the correct death date. Also if you look at the numbers supplied to the template {{dda|2003|15|10|1927|8|14|mf=y}}. the format should be yyyy|mm|dd and mm is set to 15 which is not a valid month, so the template goes a bit wonky as there isn't much error checking in the template. -- WOSlinker (talk) 06:30, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I have proposed, at WP:VPT#Lua and date/time templates, rewriting this and related templates to use Lua. That would allow better error checking. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:17, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

ok, but (aside from the question of getting this particular death date correct) the point is this: when the death-date in the infobox was SHOWING as march, the computed age was WRONG

when the data was entered in the template, the month DISPLAYED as "march". i assume that was some kind of "overflow" bug, where the month was computed as (12+3)?

but, whatever's causing it, the template is NOT USEFUL in the article-space with a glitch like that (until it gets fixed). it should NOT mis-read month-numbers like that. if the month-number is >12, it should be a "nul-value", not an "overcount". the current "behaviour" makes it harder to notice mistakes in using the template, & clearly makes it easier for such errors to slip into articles...

Lx 121 (talk) 06:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's been explianed to you that the issue was caused by GIGO, not a bug in the template. It's been explained you that better detection of bad data has already been proposed. What else do you think should be done, to resolve this minor edge case? What are you going to do to help? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
well, i'm sorry that you are feeling so defensive about your template; but with all due respect that doesn't HELP TO FIX THE PROBLEM.
& quite frankly "gigo" is a pretty weak defense; if the coding is so poorly written that it allows nonsense results, then crying "gigo" just doesn't cut it.
as for how to fix it, did you not notice the suggestion i offered ABOVE?
to tl;dr it for you: WHY DON'T YOU FIX THE MONTH VALUE TO REJECT ANYTHING >12?
if that's too hard (or not possible), then the template (code) needs to be replaced with a better one.
respectfully yours,
Lx 121 (talk) 19:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
It's not my template and I don't feel defensive. And please stop SHOUTING. To reiterate: It's been explained you that better detection of bad data has already been proposed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Linebreaks

Any reason why the (aged xx) part of this template is now appearing on a line break when used in the death date field? eg. [3] [4] Never used to do this until recently... can it be fixed? Connormah (talk) 03:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

@Connormah: Of your two examples, the first does not show a wrap for me; the second does. I think that this is a combination of factors: narrow infobox, long date (September is the longest month name), inconsistency of behaviour between browsers, different installed fonts. To "fix" it for one combination may break it for another. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

nowrap

I keep seeing this and related templates wrapped in {{nowrap}}. If this is proper, then it should be added to the template. --  Gadget850 talk 01:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

@Gadget850: It shouldn't be necessary. See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 132#Linebreaks in infoboxes. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:01, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64: - It still seems to be happening (along with the birth date template) in other infoboxes (writer/officeholder), along with the person infobox when certain parameters with "long" names are used... would it cause problems to default nowrap both templates? Connormah (talk) 23:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone know how to do this? Connormah (talk) 23:39, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Should the use be restricted to the articles subject?

As the original purpose of the template was to provide metadata should we not mention in the instructions to only use for the articles subject? AWB uses the template to update the Persondata template and can be fooled - For example, this edit [5] added a death date for an actress, although it was actually her son who died. Periglio (talk) 12:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

The template should really only be used in infoboxes; AWB should be told to ignore it if it occurs elsewhere. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:10, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Good point, I will raise that as a bug. Periglio (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Wilhelm Nikolaus Suksdorf with hyphen

Please see this new article. Does anyone know why there is a hyphen between "aged" and "83"? I still have lots to do on the body, but I can't figure out the hyphen in the infobox. HalfGig talk 13:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

You had the dates reversed. I've fixed it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
HAHA. Dumb me. Thanks Pigsonthewing! HalfGig talk 14:12, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Math error

Artie Shaw lived from May of 1910 to December of 2004 (94.6 years). By standard convention he was 94 years old (plus x-days), not 95 years. Why then does the template show "aged 95" in his Infobox? tahc chat 07:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Because the date entered in the template was 1909. I've changed it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
@Tahc: That's not the whole story. These edits altered some instances of 1909 to 1910, but not all. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
That's the whole story so far as the OP's question and this temlpate is concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:29, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Adding code to display age range at death if birth month and day are unknown

I have added code to the sandbox that is intended to display an age range at death if only the year of birth is known. That should allow the birth month and day to be omitted. Here are some tests:

  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2015|6|19|2013|df=y}} → 19 June 2015(2015-06-19) (aged 1–2) (no birth month or day of month; should show age range at death)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2018|6|19|2016|df=y}} → 19 June 2018(2018-06-19) (aged 1–2)(no birth month or day of month; should show age range at death; invalid death year)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2001|6|19|2013|df=y}} → Error: Death date (first date) must be later in time than the birth date (second date)(no birth month or day of month; birth and death years reversed)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|19|1923|1|df=y}} → 19 June 1979(1979-06-19) (aged 56) (birth month already reached; day of birth month omitted)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|19|1923|12|df=y}} → 19 June 1979(1979-06-19) (aged 55) (birth month not yet reached; day of birth month omitted)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|19|1923|6|df=y}} → 19 June 1979(1979-06-19) (aged 55–56) (birth month is same as death month; day of birth month omitted)

I think this should work, but I had to jump through a bunch of hoops. This would allow us to fix all of the templates with "0" for the birth month/day by simply deleting those values. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Easier than that. Timothy Eaton was fixed by simply switching it to use the sandbox. I think it's fine to assume that zero means "unknown or uncertain" and that is equivalent to not specified. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Oh oh. I put Samuel Cornish in the sandbox and now it says he died at (aged 219–220). – Wbm1058 (talk) 16:09, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I've fixed that. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Now Johnny Broadnax is in the sandbox. The live template reports that "1910" is an invalid day, but the sandbox does not. Wbm1058 (talk) 17:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Fixed in the sandbox. I had broken the day test. Thank goodness for sandboxes. If we go much farther with this project, we're going to need a page of test cases. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:21, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
The template and its documentation have been updated. You should be able to omit month and day values that are currently listed as "0". – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Missing day

Come across some articles that have the death day missing in the template so cant be fixed, solution ? MilborneOne (talk) 20:25, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

{{Death-date and age}} may work for that situation. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:19, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Atlético Petróleos de Luanda (basketball)

Atlético Petróleos de Luanda (basketball) has an invalid date, but its complicated! The date is within the {{Petro Atlético Basketball roster}} template, but ultimately in the {{Player3}} template. I can see the {{birth date}} template in the Player3 is still expecting the full 3 parameters. I mention it hoping that someone a bit more experienced will take over. Periglio (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I poked around in the Player3 template, and it looks like some checking could work there, but the age template that it uses generates only a single value for a given birth year, which is clearly wrong (i.e. someone born in 1950 could be 64 or 65 right now). I didn't have the energy to fix all of the problems, so I removed the birth year for that player. I checked a sample of about 25 articles using the Player3 template, and none of them had errors. If this is a widespread error, I'll take a look at the Player3 template to see if I can fix it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:30, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Although I just fixed another example, I would say it is not worth the effort adding extra code to Player3. Out of the 1000 remaining errors, there are not going to be many other exceptions. Ongoing, I see someone has edited the Player3 documentation to say all 3 parameters are expected, and editors will now see the error message in their edits. Periglio (talk) 09:49, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Checking for invalid parameter values

We recently added error-checking to {{Birth date and age}} (see this discussion for details). I propose that this popular template get the same treatment. Here are some examples of errors detected in the sandbox:

  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2018|6|19|2013|9|16|df=y}} → 19 June 2018(2018-06-19) (aged 4) (invalid death year)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2018|6|19|2016|9|16|df=y}} → 19 June 2018(2018-06-19) (aged 1)(invalid birth and death years)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2001|6|19|2013|9|16|df=y}} → 19 June 2018(2018-06-19) (aged 1)(birth and death years reversed)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|19|1923|19|16|df=y}} → Error: Need valid birth date (second date): year, month, day (invalid birth month)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|16|19|1923|9|16|df=y}} → Error: Need valid death date (first date): year, month, day (invalid death month)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|16|19|1923|19|16|df=y}} → Error: Need valid death date (first date): year, month, day (invalid birth and death months)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|19|1923|9|36|df=y}} → Error: Need valid birth date (second date): year, month, day(invalid birth day)
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|1979|6|39|1923|9|16|df=y}} → Error: Need valid death date (first date): year, month, day(invalid death day)

Paging Periglio, WeijiBaikeBianji, Mr. Stradivarius, Wbm1058, MilborneOne. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for paging me about this. I'm not sure why some of those dates (e.g., 19 June) have validation problems. What's shown here are cases where one date is okay, but the other date is in incorrect format (per the template documentation), right? -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 02:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
In some cases, one date is valid and the other is not. In other cases, both dates are invalid. In one case, the combination is what causes the error message. The notes following the rendered templates explain what is wrong with each instance. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:56, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I've added an error for birth years and death years that are more than 150 years apart:
  • {{death date and age/sandbox|2012|6|19|1500|9|16|df=y}} → Error: Invalid dates for calculating age(over 150 years old at date of death)
That's all I can think of for now. Any others we might have missed? — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 06:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Over 500 articles are now displaying corrected dates as a result of the change to the birth template, so introducing the same error checking in this template is certainly worthwhile. I know it will make the code more complicated but it does not validate the day against the month - ie Error: Need valid death date (first date): year, month, day is still valid as well as non-leap years Error: Need valid death date (first date): year, month, day I have seen examples of these errors when I was validating Persondata dates but I would not like to say whether it would be worth the extra complexity. Periglio (talk) 14:39, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
It is my opinion that a complete overhaul of all of the age templates to use a common Lua module, or at least to use a common code base, would be of more value than adding these detailed checks to each of dozens of templates. Others may have a different opinion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Date validation code exists in Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation. The function is_valid_date () validates a single date and accounts for leap years for both the Julian and Gregorian calendars. There may be other date validation code out there.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:21, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: is this edit ready to go or do you need more time to discuss? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:40, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Ready to go. Thanks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:33, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
 Done -- WOSlinker (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Progress tracking

Category:Pages using age template with invalid date didn't stay empty for long. 752 members now, and still cooking. Hot off the grill! -- Wbm1058 (talk) 01:06, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

{{Birth date}} and {{Birth date and age}} were also modified today, so you may see errors from those templates.
How do we fix {{death date and age|1891|4|14|1863|0|0}} (death date known, only birth year known)? I see this in Frank Bell (baseball) and other articles. I don't see a template that works for this situation, but it's been a long day, so I am probably missing something. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:55, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I've also run into some where the birth date is uncertain. My solution: {{death date |1891|4|14}} (1891-04-14)April 14, 1891 – Wbm1058 (talk) 02:09, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
If we only know the year of birth, but not the month or the day, we can only guess about the age at death. It is either age or age+1, depending on whether they died before or after their birthday that year.
However, if we know the month, but not the exact day, then the age can be determined provided they did not die in the same month as their birthday, e.g. Timothy Eaton, born March 1834:
{{death date and age|1907|1|31|1834|3|0}} reports: January 31, 1907 (aged 72) invalid day
By fixing it with {{death date |1907|1|31}} we show just: January 31, 1907 – having removed the legitimately calculated age. Should we make the template smarter here? – Wbm1058 (talk) 12:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps a fix for this might significantly reduce the number of pages – 1,492 – in Category:Pages using age template with invalid date right now. Wbm1058 (talk) 12:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
There is a need for a death template where only the birth year (and optionally month) is known. The age of death is a useful thing to display, it would be a pity to lose it because the templates could not handle it. Periglio (talk) 13:14, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Now I see that {{Death year and age}} is the vehicle for showing approximate ages, which has a parameter for an optional month of death (but no parameter for an "optional day of death"?). But why would you expect a template titled "Death year" to specify a specific month or day? And the sequence of these unnamed parameters. Was this template system intentionally designed to be as complicated and confusing as possible? What we are really looking for is {{death date and approximate age}}, which have optional paramters for the day and month of birth. There are many people from prior centuries where the first record is of their baptism in a church, so only the parents' word can be taken for the specific date of the home birth. We don't have hospital-birth records like we do today. Wbm1058 (talk) 13:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
And some people, like George Washington Carver don't even have known birth years. His possible birth year range is 1860–64. So we have a five-year possible age-at-death range. Should we design a way to handle this with templates, or just not use templates at all for cases like this? These templates have a tendency to encourage editors to force a specific date, when there really is no known specific date, thus creating misleading "precision". Wbm1058 (talk) 13:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Another thought regarding the current "design": several different, but related templates, unnamed parameters... this is a great system for the person(s) who designed it, if they alone intend to use it, to conveniently and quickly enter shorthand for birth and death dates for many people, as they rapidly create many biography stubs. But for the typical editor who just wants to create a new biography, they will spend more time learning and figuring out the correct templates to use and the correct syntax to use in them, so it would be easier to not bother with templates at all. Perhaps this is something that Visual Editor can provide a good solution for. Wbm1058 (talk) 14:14, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
See next section. Regarding "template system intentionally designed": It is clear that what we have here is not a template system that was intentionally designed. It is very much ad hoc and needs a complete overhaul. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
One day, there will be a single template which picks up the birth and death dates from Wikidata, in the same way as the foreign language wikilinks. I am here as I am working on making the wikidata dates reliable, but I do not see it happening any time soon! Periglio (talk) 06:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks to everybodys help we are down to 999. MilborneOne (talk) 16:08, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Next template?

As this seems to be the current page for comments on the age template project, I suggest {{Birth year and age}} as the next one to be updated. I have fixed a couple recently that were saying age (161-162). Periglio (talk) 19:05, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Comments are welcome at Template talk:Birth year and age. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:17, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Fixing age at death accuracy when month/day of birth is unknown

This template uses {{Age in years}} to calculate the age of a person at their death if the month and day of birth are unknown. That template currently shows only a single age, which causes a potentially inaccurate age at death to be displayed. Please see Template talk:Age in years for an explanation and a proposed fix. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:50, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Error on several pages

The following is appearing on some pages

"Expression error: Unexpected < operator–Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character "{".Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character "{".)Expression error: Unexpected > operator"

See google

-- Aronzak (talk) 05:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I just fixed Arbeo of Freising, which was using the wrong templates. The documentation for most of these age-related templates provides guidance about which template to use. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
This template could check more gracefully for missing parameters and put the articles in the existing error category, but I don't have time to do it until at least August. I messed around a bit in the template's sandbox to add a check for parameters 3 and 4, but the new code does not work gracefully, and it needs regression testing with other types of errors that are already detected. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

What if birth day is known but only month/year of death is known?

See Template talk:Death year and age § What if birth day is known but only month/year of death is known?

I've asking the protecting admin to lower the protection of {{Death year and age}} to template-editor level, so that we can work on it. – Wbm1058 (talk) 14:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

"Age" versus "aged"

I would like to see a consensus develop on whether this template should employ the word "age" or "aged". This question has been asked many times (in the past archives). Most of those questioning the wording advocate that it change from "aged" to "age". The response has always been "This has been discussed before" and it links to some prior discussion. The prior discussion, however, was extremely short and only involved two or three people. There was one editor who "authoritatively" stated that "aged" is correct and "age" is incorrect. And he directed to a Wiktionary link for the definition of "aged". (See here wikt:aged). That dictionary definition says "Having the age of". However, it also says, "(primarily non-US)". I am in the USA. I have never seen or heard the phrasing "aged 25". I have always seen/heard the phrasing as "age 25". I am sure many will agree with me. And, this is the English Wikipedia, of which the USA is a major part. So, how do we discuss this matter and develop a consensus one way or the other? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:28, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

This is another British/American issue that will remain unresolved until we get a us.wikipedia.org or uk.wikipedia.org to edit! Look up an obituary in a British newspaper, you will see "xxx died aged 77". American newspapers go for "xxx died. He was 77" or "xxx, 77, died". Periglio (talk) 06:46, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it is probably a British/American discrepancy. But why should British terminology "trump" American? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Talking generally, I have seen many heated British/American debates throughout Wikipedia. The usual outcome is "no consensus". In other words "first come, first served", whichever language nuance first appeared will remain. (nb I'm just explaining why we stick with aged rather than offering any argument for or against.) Periglio (talk) 09:08, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Manual of Style MOS:ENGVAR states we do not choose one language over the over. MOS:COMMONALITY suggests we find a compromise acceptable to both languages. Failing that, MOS:RETAIN says we keep the language we have. To mess that up, WP:ARTCON says we aim for consistency in an article. If there was to be a solution, I would suggest the df=yes option generates "aged", whereas the "mf=yes" option generates "???". Periglio (talk) 09:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
@Periglio: Thanks. You stated: "If there was to be a solution, I would suggest the df=yes option generates "aged", whereas the "mf=yes" option generates "???"." I have no idea what that means. Can you explain? Thanks. I am not familiar with the template at all, or its internal codes. I am just familiar with the result/output (i.e., it produces "aged 25" and not "age 25"). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:07, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, it was not clear. The template already has an option for UK or US style dates (Date first or month first). A solution could be to also adjust the text to suit the chosen UK or US.

Currently we have...

My suggestion...

It is a simple patch which I have already done in my sandbox. First we will need a few more people to confirm that this is the correct grammar for the US style, and then a consensus to implement. To my UK ears, aged sounds right. I am offering this as a solution on my assumption that this is a UK/US difference, although I have no idea if this is the case! Periglio (talk) 20:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I like your idea very much. I don't see how it would cause disagreement. In fact, for the British style (in your examples above), it is consistent in date and "aged" semantics. In the American style, it is inconsistent (i.e., using American date style, but British "aged" semantics instead of "age"). That's a great idea. How do we implement it? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
It is typical in a case such as this to cite actual reliable sources to support the change. Joseph A. Spadaro, as the advocate of this change, can you please find some articles that use "age 25" in this context? I know that it is possible to find the phrase "age 25" in many contexts, but the RS examples that you find should be using the phrase "age 25" (or whatever number) in the context of listing a date or year of death, followed by an age, which is the purpose of this template. Thanks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:15, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are asking. Are you asking me to find examples that say something along the lines of "John Smith died on January 1, 2000 (age 38)."? And/or "The phrase "age" is the American convention in this context."? Whatr exactly do you want me to produce an RS as saying? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:50, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
We need evidence that the American convention is different to the UK. For example, I have 3 obituary examples from three different British national newspapers, each shows that "aged" is the normal UK usage.
Graham Ellis, who has died aged 90 [6]
Ex-SAS paratrooper who was first British soldier to set foot in occupied France on D-Day has died aged 95[7]
Nubar, died on 17th November 2013, aged 85 years[8]
To get a consensus on change, we will need some examples that show our new format is normal US usage. Periglio (talk) 00:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but ... you can't prove a negative. How do I show evidence that the "aged" terminology is never used? A typical US obituary (or article) will say: "John Jones, 37, entered into eternal rest" or some such. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:49, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Proposed change to template - Aged or Age

One of the parameters of this template alters the ordering from MONTH,DATE,YEAR to DATE,MONTH,YEAR to cater for the differences between US and UK date formats (see MOS:DATETIES). At the moment whichever date format is used the template uses "aged nn". Previous discussions have raised the question whether the term "aged" is grammatically correct.

I believe "aged" is correct for UK, but I do not know how a US version should be formatted. Just "age" has been suggested, see previous section "Age" versus "aged". I have created a revised template in my sandbox to show my proposed change, which only affects the US format. 

Example UK date format: John Aspinall (zoo owner) 29 June 2000(2000-06-29) (aged 74)
Example US date format: James Dean  September 30, 1955(1955-09-30) (at age 24)
  1. Is "age" the correct syntax for US style date?
  2. Should we implement this revised template.

Periglio (talk) 11:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Conditional support I came here from Wikipedia:Help desk#Age at death, seems reasonable providing "age nn" is indeed the US norm. Initially I misunderstood your proposal, so I am going to add a comment under the message you left there. -- PBS (talk) 10:25, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Sounds like a sensible idea to me. I've actually just coded up this change in {{Death date and age/sandbox}}, so you can test it out if you like. Setting the |df= parameter to anything will result in DMY dates and "aged"; not setting it will result in MDY dates and "age". — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's a matter of ENGVAR here. "aged" is the correct tense we should be using (Dictionary says it means "having reached a specified age") - so and so was xx years old when they died on (date). In the US, there's a whole wide range of different wordings for obituaries ("at the age of xx", "in his/her xxth year", "(name), xx", "He/she was xx", "has died at xx", etc. etc.). Using "age xx" for Template:Birth date and age is correct as it says that so and so is xx years old presently. To say someone was "age xx" at their death just looks wrong, personally. I don't think there's an issue here. I think we should remain consistent. (alternatively, I suppose we could just change it to something like (xx years old), but that might be unnecessary) Connormah (talk) 13:00, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Two points. (1) You make an excellent suggestion: using (xx years old). That might solve the whole problem. And it looks good to me. Thanks. (2) Second point. You said that "(Dictionary says it means 'having reached a specified age')". That is true. But the dictionary also points out that that is non-US only. I mentioned that in another post, somewhere. The wiktionary entry is here: wikt:aged. The exact description for that definition is "primarily, non-US". Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • FWIW, I think "age xx" is more common in Canada as well, though as usual, we use either. Resolute 14:09, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • STRONG SUPPORT – I am the one who brought this issue up. You can see the above discussion, as well as several other contemporaneous discussions. I will add more comments later, when I can get back to my computer. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:47, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
    • In the Talk Page section immediately above this one (entitled "Age" versus "aged"), I offered many examples of different obituaries in different newspapers in the USA using the preferred "age" wording. See above. Thanks. I also asked, how can a negative be proven? How can I offer evidence/proof that the word "aged" is never used in the USA in this context? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:59, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The examples given are prose, and so not comparable with templated factoids, (where, incidentally, brevity is key, so "years old" is even worse)). And I write as a native en-GB speaker. Finally, any proposal for a change of this magnitude needs to be advertised centrally. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Speaking as a US person, "age" looks wrong to me as a parenthetical at the end of a sentence, which is how an infobox entry reads to me. One might say "at age 77". But "aged" seems acceptable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:37, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
    • I agree with this too. It also seems strange and doesn't sit right with me (for a lack of better words) to me that the tense of the word "age" wouldn't change from the birth date and age template. "Aged" is correct here, imo. Connormah (talk) 06:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
      • It's not a verb ("to age"). It's an adjective (or maybe a noun/appositive, serving as an adjective?), describing the person ("John"). Think along the lines of something like this: John P. Jones, age 51, height 5 foot 11, weight 207, rank Lieutenant, hometown Cincinnati. Those phrases are all describing John. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk)
  • The AMA manual of stuyle,. whcih is American, uses "aged". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:28, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
The linked extract uses aged in a different context i.e. when it is referring to a date range. Periglio (talk) 11:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Correct. That link (for the AMA Manual of Style) is irrelevant. And it does not support the proposition that the editor claims it supports. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Alternative proposal

How do we discuss an alternative proposal? Someone above suggested this. We scrap the wording "age 26" or "aged 26" and simply replace it with "26 years old". Not a bad idea. Or are there implications that maybe I am not seeing? For example, what if a person is only "months old" or only "days old", and not "years old"? (In other words, if a young infant dies.) How do we consider this proposal also? It seems like a great resolution. No? It avoids the American versus British discrepancy. It "sounds" correct to everyone's ears. And it keeps all articles consistent. No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd buy that myself. But we usually use "xx years old" while people are still living, no? As a further alternative, maybe it goes on a separate line of the template:
Age at death 26 years
(Not really including the table borders—I just wanted to show what I meant) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:51, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
That's not a bad idea. I like it. The only problem I see is consistency (living people versus deceased people). For a living person, an Infobox states "age 26" in parentheses right after their birthday. Currently, for a deceased person, an Infobox states "age 26" in parentheses right after their death day. So, that is consistent. And our eyes are "trained" to look in that spot. The only issue I have with your new proposal is that it creates an inconsistency between articles (living versus deceased). Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
This is infeasible. Alakzi (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Original proposal

Could I remind you that the original proposal is just asking Do US-EN speakers prefer to see "aged" or "age" when they see a date of death summarised in an infobox.

  • This does not radically change an articles layout, it does not add additional text or extra boxes.
  • We do not need a universal UK-US solution - The existing template works for UK, this adds the ability to have a US nuance if required.
  • If we stick to the simple "Yes/No" decision ("Age"/"Aged"), we might even come to a consensus!

Periglio (talk) 04:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Let's be clear. "Yes" means: yes, let's change the template so that it has a US "option" to produce "age" in the result. "No" means: no, let's not change the template and keep it as it is. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
  • YES - Yes, yes, yes. A million times, yes. For the US/American semantics, "age" is always used in this context. I have never once heard of "aged" used in this context. Never. I provided many links/examples above. I can provide a million more. And, as I stated above (two or three times): how can I prove a negative? How can I prove that the word "aged" is never used in the USA/American versions of this context? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
    You could ask someone who has access to British and American corpora to run a query for you. (Not me, unfortunately.) — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
    I would counter, though: What's the point? Suppose someone found a counterexample. Clearly the normal American usage is "age". If it's not always used, it's substantially always used. So: Yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StevenJ81 (talk • contribs) 14:08, 4 August 2015‎ (UTC)
    Corpus linguistics is all about statistics anyway, so it's likely that any answer would be a percentage one. The idea would be to get a statistical idea of how often "age" and "aged" (or something else) are used in each variety of English. (I should clarify that I'm just outlining how you would go about doing that, not saying that it is something that we should actually do.) — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 15:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
    First, sorry for failing to sign the above; I know better.
    Second, I meant my comment more rhetorically. Based on personal, empirical experience—granted, not always a reliable source—I'd guess that (a) we would prove that Joseph is technically incorrect (i.e., we would find a counterexample of his negative somewhere), but at the same time (b) that in the overwhelming majority of cases, he is completely correct. I doubt that consulting the corpora for a statistical read would change that description. In that event, one still needs to answer the original proposal. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:17, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Support: "Aged" ("UK") is more literate than "Age" ("US"). I don't see any need to advertise this discussion to a wider audience; most people probably haven't noticed the difference. BTW, I'm U.S.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:08, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Please see Rfc at Template talk:Birth date and age

The request for comments here also affects this template. Feedback is much appreciated.--Nevé–selbert 23:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi all… what are the merits of the {{death date and age}} template?

Hi all… what are the merits of using the {{death date and age|YYYYY|MM|DD|yyyy|mm|dd|df=yes}} template? After the death of a person, the birth, and death dates are fixed, so there is no requirement for a dynamic calculation of age, and if the birth, and death categories are completed, does the {{death date and age}} template serve any purpose? Best regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 12:15, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm always in favor of letting computers do my work for me.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 12:57, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
It's like {{convert}}. Some templates output fixed data so they are technically not required, but they give confidence that the displayed value is accurate. Otherwise, people would have to repeatedly manually check gnomish edits which changed the "fixed" text. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Age

Isn't that more correct if, for example, the format is (age 54 or 55) instead of (age 54–55)? --Hddty. (talk) 15:23, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Hddty. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:26, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
I dont see a difference in them that is worth worrying about. MilborneOne (talk) 15:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
MilborneOne, the punctuation en dash may also means "range" so that implies that the person's age may have a decimal point on it (like 54.5). --Hddty. (talk) 17:35, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Probably not known by 99.9% of readers who will just take it as they see and nobody would be daft enough to expect decimal places in an age. So my original comment still stands not worth worrying about. MilborneOne (talk) 20:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

BC to AD

I'm not sure of the proper way to handle those born in BC and dying in AD. Sejanus being an example. If only in BC I believe the template should work if you use negative years. However with no year zero, you seem likely to get an off-by-one error. Jerod Lycett (talk) 16:01, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

The template emits metadata in one of the standard metadata formats. The specification of the format is by an outside organization, and is not subject to control or reinterpretation by Wikipedia. The format for dates is ISO 8601, which requires use of the Gregorian calendar, and also requires consent among the data exchange partners to use for dates before AD 1583.
Dates around AD 1 of a Roman will be in the Julian calendar. Such dates are also before 1583. Therefore the template should not be used. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:24, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I was not aware of that, this and other such templates should contain a note about that then, and possibly generate a category for those before 1583. Jerod Lycett (talk) 16:44, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
I just added a note to the documentation. Feel to make the note more prominent. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:05, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Ask

why can't I use it like the following?

{{death date and age|2012|03|13|2001|03|df=yes}} {{death date and age |1993|2|29 |1921|2|df=yes}}--223.104.186.116 (talk) 13:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Likely because you don't need the template to know the age-at-death for someone who died in the BCs. Mostly because "January 3" didn't exist back then and so we only use years. Primefac (talk) 14:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Whoops. Struck (see below). Primefac (talk) 15:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
223.104.186.116's post had the edit summary "→‎BC to AD" because that was picked up automatically from the heading of the preceding section, since it was the post that created this "Ask" section. This section has nothing to do with BC or AD.
223.104.186.116's second template does't work because there was no February 29 in 1993 (although there is nothing about the error message that would help anyone figure that out). Jc3s5h (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
The output from {{death date and age|1993|2|29|1921|2|df=yes}} is (simulated to avoid the ugly errors):
29 February 1993 (aged Error: Second date should be year, month, day–Error: Second date should be year, month, day)
The reason that occurs is that the template outputs the following after the date if the final day is missing:
(aged {{age|1921|12|31|1993|2|29|}}–{{age|1921|1|1|1993|2|29|}})
Since 1993-02-29 is an invalid date and is used twice, the rather unhelpful message occurs. The logic could probably be moved into Module:Age which can handle missing days but it might not be worth it. Johnuniq (talk) 00:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Death_date_and_age/Archive_2&oldid=1125741921"