Template:Did you know nominations/Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 12:38, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
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Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine
... that Oksana Lyniv, who founded the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine in 2016, conducted them on a concert tour in 2022 to ten music festivals in Austria, Germany and Switzerland?Source: several- ALT1:
... that Oksana Lyniv conducted the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine that she founded in 2016, in Berlin in 2023 in Evgeni Orkin's Odessa Rhapsody and Beethoven's Fifth Symphony?Source: several - Reviewed: see below, reviewed after nomination and response
- Comment: "Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it ..." - I heard this orchestra and found their playing (and history) fascinating. What can we say? The first hook is modelled after a suggestion by Airshipjungleman, trying to please. I'd prefer music. Suggestions welcome. The conductor was the first woman ever to conduct at the Bayreuth Festival which would be sensational - just not about the orchestra, and her article is too old. I took a picture but it doesn't show well in small size. Her image is clear but not exactly about the orchestra.
- ALT1:
Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 2100 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC).
- As 4meter4 is the other opera DYK expert here and may have more experience with regards to the subject matter, I am inviting them to review this nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Also suggesting hooks here:
- ALT2
... that a 2024 review of a performance by the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine praised it for giving a refreshing take on Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto? - ALT3
... that the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine performed 30 concerts across ten music festivals in 2022?
- ALT2
- I was also thinking about a hook about the Casals Forum performance, but it might be hard to put that into a concise hook, and one issue is that the Ukrainian work doesn't have an article. Though if there was a good way to highlight the combination of Ukrainian and German works, that might be a good option. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offers. I believe that the year of foundation (before the invasion) and even more the fact that this orchestra is shaped not only by a woman, but one of the most distinguished women conducting (first in Bayreuth, first to become musical director of an Italian opera house!) would add interest to any hook. Please consider and perhaps rephrase. I plan an article on the violinist, which means that the idea of ALT2 could come with him. The combination of Ukrainian and classical period music is the theme of ALT1, and for the average reader, Berlin is still the better known venue than the Casals Forum, and Beethoven's Fifth stronger than the Concerto. I would have liked to add "German premiere" to the speaking title Odessa Rhapsody, but then it was 201 chars. Perhaps the article on the composer Evgeni Orkin or even the piece will be written some day, a possibility to mention that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Agnes Kimball. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- I also reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/In the Darkest of Nights, Let the Birds Sing --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5 I'm happy to review since I was pinged. I agree to a certain extent that Oksana Lyniv would add interest to some readers. She was recently profiled in The New York Times and will be familiar to some (but not many) English speaking readers. That said, I think Narutolovehinata5's hooks have stronger appeal in the way they are crafted to an English speaking audience. I suggest working her into alt hooks 2 and 3. by stating performance were led by or under "founding music director Oksana Lyniv" or "by the orchestra's founding director Oksana Lyniv". Whatever works best per the hook and keeps it as succinct as possible. No additional content should be altered though to these hooks or they will cease to be hooky. That means no throwing in of extraneous facts like when and where the orchestra was founded or listing all the countries where they toured. we could simly say they performed "internationally" in alt 3 to make it clear not all of the music festivals were in the same country. I will look at other criteria momentarily and will provide a full review shortly. In the mean time, work on those hook modifications, and remember hooks with too many facts will be rejected.4meter4 (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the effort. I believe that the founding year and performance year tell readers with little effort that this orchestra survived the invasion, and I believe that even people who never heard the conductor's name will still like that it's a woman. Please don't put work into ALT2 because I seriously would like that fact for the violinist.
- ALT0a:
... that Oksana Lyniv founded the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine in 2016 and conducted them in 2022 at ten music festivals.--Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)- Alt0b" ... that Oksana Lyniv founded the Youth Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine in 2016 and conducted them in 30 concerts across ten music festivals in 2022?
- I'm sold on that argument Gerda. But the wording by Narutolovehinata5 had a stronger grabbing quality to the ear. I spliced them in Alt0b and that should make everyone happy.4meter4 (talk) 19:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5 I'm happy to review since I was pinged. I agree to a certain extent that Oksana Lyniv would add interest to some readers. She was recently profiled in The New York Times and will be familiar to some (but not many) English speaking readers. That said, I think Narutolovehinata5's hooks have stronger appeal in the way they are crafted to an English speaking audience. I suggest working her into alt hooks 2 and 3. by stating performance were led by or under "founding music director Oksana Lyniv" or "by the orchestra's founding director Oksana Lyniv". Whatever works best per the hook and keeps it as succinct as possible. No additional content should be altered though to these hooks or they will cease to be hooky. That means no throwing in of extraneous facts like when and where the orchestra was founded or listing all the countries where they toured. we could simly say they performed "internationally" in alt 3 to make it clear not all of the music festivals were in the same country. I will look at other criteria momentarily and will provide a full review shortly. In the mean time, work on those hook modifications, and remember hooks with too many facts will be rejected.4meter4 (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Now that we have a good sounding hook, on to the review. I want to begin by saying thank you for creating this article. I found it interesting. The article is new enough and long enough. AltoB is the hook I am going to approve, and it is verified to the EFNYO source, which is a reliable primary source. However. there are several issues with the article when it comes to passing WP:DYKCITE. WP:RSPRIMARY states "Large blocks of material based purely on primary sources should be avoided." The article is currently mainly built from primary source materials from professional organizations with ties to the orchestra. These are all self published websites, and while I believe them to contain accurate and reliable information (some of them are government instutions/websites) they are still primary materials and should be used sparingly. Only two sentences in the entire article are built from secondary sources, and this is a major problem. Those two sentences are the ones cited to the two independent secondary sources used from Der Tagesspiegel and FAZ. The referencing therefore needs to be drastically improved, and wherever possible, primary materials need to be replaced with secondary sources. Additionally, any paragraph containing 50% or more material cited to primary sources is a red flag to promotion per WP:RSPRIMARY which specifically forbids paragraphs only based on primary materials. In other words, there is much work to be done to get the referencing in line with policy.
Additionally, the article fails WP:DYKTAG because there are many run-on sentences. The entire first paragraph of the body is a mess. Content needs to be broken up into smaller sentences. I would suggest moving "successful internationally in opera and concert" out of the first sentence, and explaining who Oksana Lyniv is and what her reputation is with an attributed quote in a second sentence. I would move "based on the model of the German national youth orchestra, Bundesjugendorchester." into a third sentence after that. There are many German orchestras, so don't refer to any orchestra as the German orchestra. Use proper names throughout. It's not clear at all what Kyiv, Bonn and Berlin are doing/ refering to at the end of the paragraph. I'm assuming some performances happened there? It's confusing as worded. Remember that readers may not realize/know that Lyniv conducts all (or most?) their concerts. You need to state she does somewhere, or any reference to "the conductor" may not be obviously about her. Critical assessment quotes should be attributed in the prose of the article. The first sentence of the last paragraph is a run-on-sentence and needs to be broken up into smaller pieces. Lots of work to do Gerda. Ping me when copy-editing and sourcing issues are fixed.4meter4 (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Article has been copy edited and most of the citations to primary sources have been replaced with secondary reference citations. Those few that remain are to reliable government affiliated websites or fall under the non-controversial use per WP:ABOUTSELF policy. Approving hook Altob only. Hook length checks out and the hook fact is verified to the cited source.4meter4 (talk) 20:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
