Template:Did you know nominations/The Cuckoo (novel)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:19, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
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The Cuckoo (novel)
- ... that "the first Japanese novel presented to the West," Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo, was considered even more tragic than Madama Butterfly? Source: "Non-Japanese audiences often compared her to the character in Pierre Loti's novel Madame Chrysanthème, which formed the basis for the opera Madama Butterfly. These comparisons found Namiko even more tragic and admirable than Madame Chrysanthème
- ALT1:... that Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo was translated into English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Swedish, and Finnish, but none of these included its most famous line? Source: "These lines are not translated in the 1904 or 1918 translations of the novel, perhaps because the translators assumed their readers would not understand the reference to reincarnation"
5x expanded by Oulfis (talk). Self-nominated at 09:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC).
The article is long enough and sufficiently expanded in the proper timeframe, but I have issues with the hooks. The first, frankly, is a bit dull. I would prefer the ALT1 hook, except it is not what either the text of the article or the reference actually say. The claim that the line isn't translated has to be restricted to the first English and French translations, because the author of the paper states that she has not read those translations in other languages. Mangoe (talk) 02:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hm, I guess I am going a bit too far with Lavelle in ALT1. She says "some hints seem to show that the French translation is the only one not based on the English version. The Spanish and Portuguese ones open with a translation of the “Introduction” to the English edition, clearly presented as such: Introducciôn de los tradutores al inglés and Introdução dos autôres da versão inglêsa." So the English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese translations (based on her research) wouldn't contain the line, but German, Italian, Swedish, and Finnish could (in the unlikely scenario where they were based on the Japanese). Piecing things together like this is probably too much synthesis and falls under original research, though.
- Do either of the following hooks seem more interesting?
- ALT2:... that Kenjirō Tokutomi's tragic novel The Cuckoo was "one of the most phenomenal commercial successes Japan had ever known" when it was first published? Source: "Thanks to its tear-worthy plot and flowery style, Tokutomi Roka (or Kenjirō, 1868-1927)’s novel was one of the most phenomenal commercial successes Japan had ever known in the first half of the 20th century." (Lavelle 97)
- ALT3:... that Kenjirō Tokutomi's bestselling novel The Cuckoo was based on a real incident, in which Yataro Mishima was convinced to divorce his wife because she had tuberculosis? Source: Nimura pp. 241-243 (I can type up the pages if you want)
- I also personally find it fascinating that it went from being such a big success and cultural touchstone, in Japan and in America, to being almost forgotten and inaccessible -- but I suspect 'did you know nobody cares about this book anymore' won't be broadly appealing beyond literary critics, haha. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 04:43, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Mangoe: I think I didn't properly ping you in my reply above, my apologies, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on these alternative hooks. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
My apologies: I did look at this back at the beginning of the month, but I should have replied right away so it didn't slip my mind. I am OK with ALT3 But I would rewriting ALT1 along the following lines:
- ALT1a:... that the original English and French translations of Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo omitted its most famous line? (same cite as above)
- This strikes as a better tease, and is (I think) consistent with the citation. Mangoe (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for weighing in again. That suggestion is consistent with Lavelle, but actually Lavelle says something stronger: neither the 1904 French and English translations, nor the 1918 English translation, include the line about reincarnation, and these are the only French and English translations to exist (not just the "original" translations). Looking more closely at Lavelle, though, I see that they actually do put in something for the line, and seem to sort of translate the first half of it. So I think the following might be best: ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
- ALT4:... that the English and French translations of Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo omit half of its most famous line? "One of the biggest mysteries surrounding the topic is comprised within the translations themselves. Namiko’s famous cry of agony is quoted at the very beginning of this paper. In its denunciation of women’s inferior condition, it perfectly encapsulates the novel’s spirit and has justly so been remembered in Japan for its strong message. However, none of the three translations we have been examining translate the sentence faithfully." (Lavelle 115)
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ALT3 passes requirements, but is clearly inferior as a hook to ALT1 and its variations. ALT4 thus would be a better hook, but I don't think "half" is supported by the source as sampled above. A variation on "unfaithfully translated" would I think be just as hooky if worded right. However, for such a hook to be used, the article would need updating. The relevant sentences mention only "the 1904 or 1918 translations". From the surrounding article I take it are both English translations, but this should be made clear in the relevant paragraph as should the particular French translation. CMD (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- You're right to point out that I had been neglecting the article... I have rewritten and improved its coverage of this line, which I think now supports ALT4. Here's the new paragraph:
- In the French translation and both English translations, Namiko's dying words are not translated faithfully, perhaps because the translators assumed their readers would not understand the reference to reincarnation.[2] Contemporary scholars have transliterated and translated the original Japanese lines as "Aa tsurai! Tsurai! Mō – mō on’na nanzo ni – umare wa shimasen-yo. Aaa!" ("Oh my heart! Such a torture! Never – never again will I be born as a woman! Aah!")[2] or as "Aa tsurai! tsurai! Mō—mō—mō onna nanzo ni—umarewashimasenyo." ("It's more than I can bear. It's more than I can bear. I'll never, never, never be born a woman again.")[3] The 1904 English translation translate Namiko's words only as "Oh, my heart! Such a torture!"; the 1918 English translation gives "Oh! My heart! My heart!"; and the French translation gives "Ah, mon pauvre cœur!.... Quelle torture! quelle torture! Mieux eût valu n’être pas née!... Je souffre!" (Ah, my poor heart! What a torture! It would have been better not to be born! How I suffer!)[2] All of these translations leave out Namiko's plea not to be reborn as a woman, which was considered a strong condemnation of the role of women in society.[2]
- Source 2 there is Lavelle, source 3 is Ito. They don't state outright that the mistranslated versions are omitting half the line, though, even though comparing all the translations makes it clear that they are. So perhaps to be on the safe side with OR:
- ALT5:... that the English and French translations of Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo all mistranslate its most famous line?
- I prefer ALT4, which I think is now adequately sourced (since I think ALT4 is a a little hookier), but am fine with ALT5 too. Thanks for the patience and attentions to detail, everyone, in getting this up to snuff... (pinging @Chipmunkdavis:) ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 18:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- Would replacing "half" in ALT4 with a "key aspect" or similar meet your preferences? CMD (talk) 01:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sure, I'd be game for ALT6:... that the English and French translations of Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo all omit a key aspect of its most famous line? ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 03:40, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- Would replacing "half" in ALT4 with a "key aspect" or similar meet your preferences? CMD (talk) 01:42, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
- You're right to point out that I had been neglecting the article... I have rewritten and improved its coverage of this line, which I think now supports ALT4. Here's the new paragraph:
-
- ALT4:... that the English and French translations of Kenjirō Tokutomi's The Cuckoo omit half of its most famous line? "One of the biggest mysteries surrounding the topic is comprised within the translations themselves. Namiko’s famous cry of agony is quoted at the very beginning of this paper. In its denunciation of women’s inferior condition, it perfectly encapsulates the novel’s spirit and has justly so been remembered in Japan for its strong message. However, none of the three translations we have been examining translate the sentence faithfully." (Lavelle 115)
- Thank you for weighing in again. That suggestion is consistent with Lavelle, but actually Lavelle says something stronger: neither the 1904 French and English translations, nor the 1918 English translation, include the line about reincarnation, and these are the only French and English translations to exist (not just the "original" translations). Looking more closely at Lavelle, though, I see that they actually do put in something for the line, and seem to sort of translate the first half of it. So I think the following might be best: ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mangoe: I think I didn't properly ping you in my reply above, my apologies, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on these alternative hooks. ~ oulfis 🌸(talk) 21:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
