The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93talk 00:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
Overall: Covered for newness, length, sourcing, neutrality, is plagiarism-free, and the hook is cited and interesting. QPQ done. Good to go on this one! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
What's a "global basketball tournament 1st team all-tournament honoree"? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
Goodman has participated in three FIBA sanctioned tournaments. The first was just a regional competition for countries in Oceania. The second was a tournament for countries in Asia (and/including Oceania). The third was for countries around the world. I use the term global to mean a tournament open to worldwide/global contestants. Such tournaments select honorary teams to recognize the best performers in the tournament. These teams are called all-tournament teams and the players chosen are honorees. Sometimes the tournament will select a best five (the first team) and a next best five (the second team).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
This has likely not been promoted because the "global ... honoree" bit is pretty indecipherable. TonyTheTiger, would it be possible for you to compose a new hook? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Haven't checked the article, but the above wording should address the ambiguity given the context provided. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:35, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
@TonyTheTiger: Since the nomination is already two months old (meaning DYKTIMEOUT could apply to this nomination) and there have been concerns about "obscure US sports terminology" on DYK, maybe you can reword ALT1 slightly to make it clear what "all-tournament honoree" means? I can imagine that reviewers, and maybe readers, might have a hard time understanding what "all-tournament" means, so a more generalist wording might be in order here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
The article itself is approved, just not the hook. ALT2 is not suitable as it includes a phrase in parentheses, which is discouraged per WP:DYK200. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Frankly, that doesn't really appear to address the interest concerns ("all-tournament"? "top 5 team honoree"?) Maybe another editor can suggest a workshopped wording. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Normally I'd think it was okay, but given how close Australia and New Zealand are (both geographically and historically), it seems less interesting than it normally would. Maybe AirshipJungleman29 or Sims2aholic8 could chime in? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
I get your point, but also from Canberra to New Plymouth it's about 1,400 miles (2,250km), so it's not exactly "close". It's not exactly the same as the span of the United States or Europe but it's comparable, and I think living that far away from home as a teenager is fairly impressive. I'm happy to defer here though if there is strong feeling elsewhere that this fact is not interesting enough. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 13:20, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
I suppose ALT6 or ALT7 are safer options. I don't think ALT5 really solves the issue: normally ALT4 by itself would have been fine, it's just that Australia and New Zealand are so close culturally and politically that it doesn't seem as surprising. It's like saying an American spent some time in Canada. If it had been instead, for example, Brazil to the US or vice-versa, maybe. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Having grown up in Buffalo, New York, I don't really buy the America-Canada comparison. This is more like a teenager who grew up in Puerto Rico and had to go back and forth to train his skills in Miami at age 15. However, ALT7 makes a similar point to many of the rejected alts (up to ALT3) above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
As frustrating as this probably is, I would unfortunately have to concur that given the complexity with finding a suitable hook that WP:DYKTIMEOUT would apply here. I will wait for AirshipJungleman29 and Theleekycauldron to weigh in here though before taking any action. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 14:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
While ALT7 and ALT8 are okay to me (I'm not sure to other reviewers), I have to be frank in that ALT6 doesn't seem interesting to broad audiences. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
Yeah, ALT6 is pretty boring. Unless he joined the national basketball team at 9-years-old or something, ALT7 is also not that interesting (this recent age-related hook got just over 1700 views, so general audiences probably won't care about this hook). ALT8 is kinda just meh, I don't see it getting huge numbers. It might be best to just cut our losses and DYKTIMEOUT this one. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:32, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I have listed dozens of American basketball players with less interesting hooks. I don't think I have ever done an Asian before and definitely not a Kiwi. I have heard about American bias. As an American who writes mostly about Americans, I never really paid much attention. I feel bad for the folks down under. I will go back to American basketball players where I can list any smoe without problem.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:09, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I would've said the same things had this been a nomination for an American player. It's weird for you to bring up an American bias when at least half of the people involved in this discussion are not American. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 15:30, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I have surely nominated over 100 American basketball players, many with less interesting hooks than this. The American bias is not a statement about the reviewers, but rather about the content that is favored on ENG wikipedia. Wikipedia favors American content like news shows favor stories about Trump. It does matter whether the news station is pro Trump or anti Trump.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
I have to agree with Hilst here. It's not about an American or non-American bias, but rather if it's a hook that is likely to attract general readership regardless of location. For what it's worth, when I review hooks for interest, if I feel that the hook will only appeal to Americans, I bring that up. There's also been a pushback against hooks that focus on "obscure American sports terminology" so that's also another factor. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Well, if it all about expected viewership, this guy would have been in the 1-2k range, IMO, with most of these hooks, which counts against him. Personally, I don't see a lot of Kiwi hooks on the main page since most of my DYKs are basketball. Although I would expect him to get fewer views than a similarly accomplished American basketball player, I would expect that he would be more likely to get the Kiwi clickthrough, which would broaden WPs impact. I have gotten a lot of hooks through with the expectation of low page views. We may be in a new era or something. We get a lot of US, UK, and Southeast Asian (former UK colony) region hooks. Australia is also fairly well-represented. I viewed this hook as a subject of interest to a different set of readers. I have never written a page that has been edited by so many New Zealand editors (User:Alexeyevitch, User:Gadfium, User:Schwede66, User:Panamitsu, maybe User:Lukraun) I would expect this article to generate the same kind of clickthrough where New Zealanders have a chance to read about one of their own. I think I have put hundreds of basketball hooks through DYK. I am up around 900 or so DYKs and maybe as many as half of my DYKs are basketball. So lets say I have had 400 basketball DYKs and at most 2 timed out. For this guy to time out it means it is in the bottom 0.5% of interest level. I don't buy it. I check page views. I know this guy is not going to get me 20k views, but I think New Zealand readers would have an astounding interest much like New Zealand editors have had an unusually strong participation rate in editing this article. I may have had one or two time out in the past I dont recall. I wonder if these New Zealand editors find the hook mentioning New Zealand as boring as you guys all do.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:45, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Given the lack of agreement regarding a hook and how this is the oldest nomination on WP:DYKN and timed out a week ago, it may be time to put this nomination out of its misery. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Personally I think ALT8 is fine; yes it's not the most "enthralling" of hooks, but I think it's interesting enough and I think it satisfies the DYK brief. I have definitely seen "less interesting" hooks (if that's a thing?), and I think TonyTheTiger raises an interesting point around anti-American bias (speaking as someone from Northern Ireland); I'm not entirely sure that is what is happening here, but regardless I believe ALT8 is good to go. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Hilst still has some outstanding concerns that were raised at the WT:DYK discussion, so it might not be a good idea to give this an approval tick until that's taken care of, or their concerns are resolved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
That's a bit better. "championship game" could probably be simplified as "final", but I have no prejudice against running this hook. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Hilst, I would have no problem with final, but I'm not sure if the general reader would read it synonymously. I'll leave that tweaking to the queue setup people.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
Happy to concur with Hilst on ALT9. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
If there are no longer any concerns with ALT9 then I'm happy to restore the tick for this nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
Covered for newness, length, sourcing, neutrality, is plagiarism-free, and the hook is cited and interesting. QPQ done. Good to go on this one! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:03, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
This has likely not been promoted because the "global ... honoree" bit is pretty indecipherable. TonyTheTiger, would it be possible for you to compose a new hook? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Given the lack of agreement regarding a hook and how this is the oldest nomination on WP:DYKN and timed out a week ago, it may be time to put this nomination out of its misery. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:07, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
Personally I think ALT8 is fine; yes it's not the most "enthralling" of hooks, but I think it's interesting enough and I think it satisfies the DYK brief. I have definitely seen "less interesting" hooks (if that's a thing?), and I think TonyTheTiger raises an interesting point around anti-American bias (speaking as someone from Northern Ireland); I'm not entirely sure that is what is happening here, but regardless I believe ALT8 is good to go. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)