Template:Did you know nominations/Marguerite Vaillant-Couturier
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 17:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
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Marguerite Vaillant-Couturier
Vaillant-Couturier as Micaëla
- ... that French soprano Marguerite Vaillant-Couturier created the role of Micaëla in the world premiere of Lecocq's Le coeur et la main (pictured) in Paris in 1882? Source: several
- Reviewed: George Mann Niedecken
Created by Ipigott (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 14:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC).
- Created on 8 June, nom on 13, new enough; 2712 char, long enough; neutral; cited; no apparent copyvios. QPQ done. Hook at 150 char, under maximum; interesting and cited in the article.
I'm confused about the licensing on the photo. It says it was taken in 1882 by Atelier Nadar. Can't really tell if it was actually published in the Théâtre des Nouveautés program or not, but in any case, that studio was operated by Gaspard-Félix Tournachon who died in 1910. It is in the PD because 70 years past 1910 would have been 1980-81 and thus it was in the public domain prior to the URAA date January 1, 1996 and not eligible for a copyright extension. Even if it was not published, it would have fallen into US public domain after 120 years. For it to be eligible for an image on DYK, it must be transferred to commons with the correct licensing information. If you want to run it without the photo it's GTG just let me know. SusunW (talk) 22:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- We could run it with the other image, but I like that this is connected to the role. Calling GRuban and Tim riley for help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I'm no expert on copyright. It's been on Commons for years and has been beautifully improved. Susun, you are the expert on copyright. If you think the current license in incorrect, would it not be possible to find another license which would be acceptable for such an old image. Perhaps L'Ange au Sourire who originally uploaded it would like to comment?
- Hi, The BNF (French National Library) has determined that this file is in the public domain in France. This work is also in the public domain in all countries where copyright has a lifespan of 100 years or less after the death of the author. Nadar's death 1910. Best Regards L'Ange au Sourire (talk)
- If not, I agree with Gerda that we could substitute another image from Gallica, for example this one or even this if you see no copyright problems with them.--Ipigott (talk) 06:21, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I think you speak about the alternate (lead) image. This is the image in the role, uploaded by Tim riley, and not yet on the commons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I see you are referring to File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg which is now on Wikipedia. Does it not face the same problem as other images from Atelier Nadar? Perhaps Susun could comment.--Ipigott (talk) 06:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure that I understand your question Ipigott. The photo is not on commons and is marked "Do not copy this file to Wikimedia Commons" and was uploaded as Gerda noted by Tim Riley. I have done a brief scanning and all other images I can find by Atelier Nadar are on commons. So my question is now and was, why is it marked as it is? The licensing appears to be incorrect and I do not understand why it isn't on commons. What problem do images from Atelier Nadar face and why would they have different copyright status than other similar photos? SusunW (talk) 12:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- SusunW: I think there is some confusion here as a result of subsequent comments. As the image we originally had is now back, there don't seem to be any further copyright problems. Thanks for your additional edits on the article.--Ipigott (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am still confused Ipigott. I have never seen any image associated with this nomination other than the one that is still on the nomination. It is titled "File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg" and was uploaded by Tim Riley. (I did not examine any photograph in the article except the one in this nomination.) In my opinion, it definitely has a licensing issue for appearing at DYK. Perhaps Buidhe, who usually focuses on FA would be willing to look at it and advise if my analysis of this particular image is incorrect. If I am wrong, I am certainly willing to accept that and I have no desire to hold up the DYK, but I want to be sure that we have followed the "rules". SusunW (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- As you can see, SusunW, I'm hopeless at DYK discussions. Now I have just realized what your problem is. When Gerda Arendt nominated the article for DYK, she included a new image, namely File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg, the one which is now causing problems. As the reason I created the article in the first place was because I found the image File:Vaillant Couturier Atelier Nadar btv1b531468626.jpg particularly well restored, I assumed it would be used for the DYK. I now see that Gerda, whom I admire for her wide experience of biographies of musicians and singers, prefers another image as it depicts a specific role. If the image which was originally behind the article is to be used instead (and I see it is still the main image on the article), it will be necessary to change the hook. I apologize for causing such confusion. I think it may be better if in future for me to steer clear of encouraging DYKs on my creations as I find it difficult to concentrate on new articles while having to deal with problems like this. I think we should now leave it to Gerda whether to continue with this one or not. I can see it has also been demanding a lot of her time and attention and I don't want to create any more difficulties.--Ipigott (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- No problem for me at all. We can use the lead image, just moving (pictured) in the hook. It fascinated me that the other image is more directly related to the hook, and I didn't even look at its licensing because I was sure that such an old photograph is out of copyright. I'd like to know what Adam thinks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:18, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- As you can see, SusunW, I'm hopeless at DYK discussions. Now I have just realized what your problem is. When Gerda Arendt nominated the article for DYK, she included a new image, namely File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg, the one which is now causing problems. As the reason I created the article in the first place was because I found the image File:Vaillant Couturier Atelier Nadar btv1b531468626.jpg particularly well restored, I assumed it would be used for the DYK. I now see that Gerda, whom I admire for her wide experience of biographies of musicians and singers, prefers another image as it depicts a specific role. If the image which was originally behind the article is to be used instead (and I see it is still the main image on the article), it will be necessary to change the hook. I apologize for causing such confusion. I think it may be better if in future for me to steer clear of encouraging DYKs on my creations as I find it difficult to concentrate on new articles while having to deal with problems like this. I think we should now leave it to Gerda whether to continue with this one or not. I can see it has also been demanding a lot of her time and attention and I don't want to create any more difficulties.--Ipigott (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am still confused Ipigott. I have never seen any image associated with this nomination other than the one that is still on the nomination. It is titled "File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg" and was uploaded by Tim Riley. (I did not examine any photograph in the article except the one in this nomination.) In my opinion, it definitely has a licensing issue for appearing at DYK. Perhaps Buidhe, who usually focuses on FA would be willing to look at it and advise if my analysis of this particular image is incorrect. If I am wrong, I am certainly willing to accept that and I have no desire to hold up the DYK, but I want to be sure that we have followed the "rules". SusunW (talk) 14:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- SusunW: I think there is some confusion here as a result of subsequent comments. As the image we originally had is now back, there don't seem to be any further copyright problems. Thanks for your additional edits on the article.--Ipigott (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure that I understand your question Ipigott. The photo is not on commons and is marked "Do not copy this file to Wikimedia Commons" and was uploaded as Gerda noted by Tim Riley. I have done a brief scanning and all other images I can find by Atelier Nadar are on commons. So my question is now and was, why is it marked as it is? The licensing appears to be incorrect and I do not understand why it isn't on commons. What problem do images from Atelier Nadar face and why would they have different copyright status than other similar photos? SusunW (talk) 12:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I see you are referring to File:Vaillant-Couturier Nouveautés Le coeur.jpeg which is now on Wikipedia. Does it not face the same problem as other images from Atelier Nadar? Perhaps Susun could comment.--Ipigott (talk) 06:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I'm no expert on copyright. It's been on Commons for years and has been beautifully improved. Susun, you are the expert on copyright. If you think the current license in incorrect, would it not be possible to find another license which would be acceptable for such an old image. Perhaps L'Ange au Sourire who originally uploaded it would like to comment?
- We could run it with the other image, but I like that this is connected to the role. Calling GRuban and Tim riley for help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Image is fine to use on enwiki as it was publicly distributed in the 1880s, and is also ok to upload to commons since the author died in 1910. (t · c) buidhe 17:16, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you buidhe. I will try to figure out how to move it. Never done it, so be patient with me Gerda. SusunW (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Apparently tim riley does not like Commons but you should use {{PD-France}} (exists on Commons), remove the incorrect "do not copy to Commons" notice, use the feature "Export to Wikimedia Commons", and tag the local file for speedy deletion. (t · c) buidhe 17:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Buidhe it wouldn't take PD-France, kept showing up in red, and wouldn't let me transfer it, so I used the EU tag 70+ years. I have no clue how to tag anything for speedy deletion. Sorry. I am so appreciative of your help. Wiki-technology is baffling to me. Gerda Arendt, I think you are now GTG.
SusunW (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note to whoever moves this, I have no clue if the link to the commons image needs to be updated in this nomination or in the article. When I push on the photo, I am still getting the en.wp image. SusunW (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- That will continue to happen until an admin gets around to deleting the enwiki page (t · c) buidhe 20:20, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm late to this show, but I was pinged; I also agree that this image is public domain for all the reasons stated above. It's very rare that a 140 year old image would not be; we even have https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-old-assumed for 120 year old images. --GRuban (talk) 23:53, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Buidhe it wouldn't take PD-France, kept showing up in red, and wouldn't let me transfer it, so I used the EU tag 70+ years. I have no clue how to tag anything for speedy deletion. Sorry. I am so appreciative of your help. Wiki-technology is baffling to me. Gerda Arendt, I think you are now GTG.
- Apparently tim riley does not like Commons but you should use {{PD-France}} (exists on Commons), remove the incorrect "do not copy to Commons" notice, use the feature "Export to Wikimedia Commons", and tag the local file for speedy deletion. (t · c) buidhe 17:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you buidhe. I will try to figure out how to move it. Never done it, so be patient with me Gerda. SusunW (talk) 17:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
@GRuban, Buidhe, SusunW, Gerda Arendt, and Ipigott: - a quick query, I'm not seeing the assertion that the 1882 Paris show was the "world premiere" in the article. In fact, it's not even obvious from the article text that there was even a show at the theatre that day, it only says she "created" the role there. That could mean she was working in some back rooms at the theatre couldn't it? (In fact, it's likely she would "create" the role some time before the day of the premiere). Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 10:30, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- I'm only the nominator, and I know some things about opera. "created" means first time performed in public, not when she sang first time with a repetiteur. If she didn't create that role, the opera article needs to be changed which claims it with a (different) French source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- gls supports the creation in the premiere, just not mentioning the role. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- meh, fair enough then. That seems a reasonable interpretation, and is borne out elsewhere on the web. For the avoidance of doubt, I have now added "in the world premiere of..." to the article body too, since this is what the source means and is more understandable to a broad audience (plus it matches the hook). Restoring the previous AGF approval on this basis. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 13:40, 19 July 2022 (UTC)