Template:Did you know nominations/Kirsty McGuinness

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:26, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Kirsty McGuinness

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• ... that Kirsty McGuinness plays for both the historically mostly Catholic Antrim GAA and the historically mostly Protestant Northern Ireland women's national football team? Source: BBC

• Reviewed: Border Personnel Meeting point

Created by The C of E (talk). Self-nominated at 13:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC).

• The C of E New, in time, long enough, sourced, neutral, QPQ done. Issues:

Where in the article does it say that Antrim GAA is mostly Catholic, or that the national team is mostly Protestant?

Hook seems to conflict with this line in the article: "[McGuinness playing on these teams] differed from men's sport where there are sectarian divides between majority Protestant association football and majority Roman Catholic GAA." --Usernameunique (talk) 07:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

It's in the last sentence. The hook doesn't conflict with the article as its saying she plays for both women's teams while stating that this doesn't happen in the mens teams due to the divides in NI. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

The C of E, how does "McGuinness would attend Linfield training wearing an Antrim shirt and vice versa" support the hook? Also, what I mean by the apparent contradiction is that the hook implies that the two teams are majority Catholic and majority Protestant, and that McGuinness is an exception to that trend. The sentence about men's soccer appears to say the same; that the teams are majority (but not exclusively) Catholic or Protestant, which also implies that there are some exceptions to the general trend. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

I see what you are saying. s such, I have amended the hook to state the historical divides between football and GAA that she has crossed. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:51, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks The C of E. Just need something in the article also saying that women's soccer has historically had Catholic/Protestant divisions. I think you're trying to say that in this sentence: "This differed from men's sport where there are traditionally sectarian divides between the historically majority Protestant association football and historically majority Roman Catholic GAA." However, the way that sentence is structured it seems to say that only men's soccer has historically has such a divide, when I think you are trying to say that soccer generally has had the divide, and men's soccer currently still adheres to it. Rephrasing that sentence (e.g., "Traditionally there are sectarian divides between the majority Protestant association football and historically majority Roman Catholic GAA, which are still generally adhered to in men's sport.") should do the trick. --Usernameunique (talk) 12:01, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: I have added a clarification. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:13, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks The C of E, all set. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usernameunique (talk • contribs) 23:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at WT:DYK that led to hook being pulled

Hook - " ... that Kirsty McGuinness plays for both the historically mostly Catholic Antrim GAA and the historically mostly Protestant Northern Ireland women's national football team?" Article - "This differed [sic] from men's sport where there are traditionally sectarian divides between the historically majority Protestant association football and historically majority Roman Catholic GAA, which is no longer commonplace in women's sport in Northern Ireland" Source for the hook here even flatly contradicts the hook with the quote ""Sectarianism has never been a problem in women's football. All the clubs I have ever known have always had a great blend of Protestants and Catholics." In other words, the article doesn't claim that the NI women's national team has been "historically Protestant" and the source doesn't back it up either. Also, the article says "Some of our girls come to our training with their Antrim gear on and go to Antrim training with their Linfield shirts on." which suggests that playing women's GAA and football isn't even unusual, which renders the hook immediately non-hooky. Pinging @The C of E, Yoninah, and Usernameunique:. Black Kite (talk) 20:33, 30 December 2017 (UTC) I realise that my opinion is pretty meaningless but... if there is doubt just pull it before it gets onto the mainpage and replace with another? Can always be fixed, clarified etc and added again, no? Better to be on the safe side in the end. Or are there some arcane rules i am missing that would not allow that to happen? 91.49.74.59 (talk) 21:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC) No, you're right, I can (and will) do that, even if it's just swapping it with one from a later queue just to allow for more opinions and/or fixes. Black Kite (talk) 21:43, 30 December 2017 (UTC) I've swapped it back to Prep 5 so it won't go live until tomorrow. Black Kite (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2017 (UTC) I've moved the hook to Prep 3 so there's no risk of it being promoted to queue before this issue is dealt with. There's no reason to rush things. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2017 (UTC) I had mentioned that the sports are usually divided on religious lines, it is only recently through the women's game that that barrier has been broken down. This hook was designed to show that by featuring a person who has played both GAA and football at representative level, which in itself is an interesting fact. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC) The C of E, it might be interesting if it were clear to the average reader that these are actually two different sports with different rules. I didn't realize it myself until just now, by following a number of wikilinks, that Gaelic football is not merely some sort of Irish league that plays standard football/soccer, but a different game. There needs to be clarity regarding this, both in the article and in the hook. I'll let Black Kite comment on whether your response above answers their concerns. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:50, 1 January 2018 (UTC) Moved out again while waiting for Black Kite to respond; now in Prep 6. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC) Yeah, the problem remains though - the "fact" that the Northern Ireland women's football (as opposed to the men's game) formerly had a sectarian background is not sourced - indeed the source contains a quote that actually contradicts it. It does need to be sourced, the hook can't exist without it. Black Kite (talk) 21:34, 2 January 2018 (UTC) In light of the above, I've pulled the hook from prep, and will be reopening it on the nominations page shortly. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:25, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

• The hook is contradicted by the source (see hatted discussion above, which is copied from the DYK talk page), so this nomination is being pulled from prep so a new hook can be proposed and vetted. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

  ALT1: ... that Kirsty McGuinness plays for both Antrim GAA and the Northern Ireland women's national football team, whereas in the men's equivalent the two sports are historically divided between Catholics and Protestants? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

• ALT1, regrettably, is 212 prose characters, well above the maximum 200 at DYK. Please try again, The C of E. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

ALT2:... that Kirsty McGuinness plays for both Antrim GAA and the Northern Ireland women's national football team, sports which in the men's equivalent are historically separate for Catholics and Protestants? A minor rewording but it comes to 199 characters. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• Pinging Black Kite to see whether this new hook answers their concerns about the facts and sourcing. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

• Well there's nothing actually wrong about it, although it's not massively hooky ... I wouldn't object to it though. Black Kite (talk) 00:26, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

• I think we've just about exhausted this hook direction; ALT2 seems to veer off from the subject to an historical discussion about the men's teams. Could we come up with a different hook and move this onto the main page already?
• ALT3: ... that in 2012, Linfield footballer Kirsty McGuinness crossed the Belfast's Big Two divide and helped the rival team to a Women's Premiership and Irish Women's Cup double in her first season? Yoninah (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

• New reviewer needed to check ALT3. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:04, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

- Length, Date, QPQ, and Earwigs check for ALT3. The sources indicate the player moved between the two teams (though there is no mention of a "divide" being crossed) however for the two championships, the cited video refuses to load for me (I suspect it might be Geo-restricted) and I was unable to locate an alternate source. Is there someone who can check the video/get it to load? Mifter (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking this one on, Mifter. Belfast's Big Two is a commonplace way of identifying these two teams, Linfield and Gletoran. If she moved from one team to the other, she crossed the "divide". Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

• Yoninah, Thanks for the clarification, I suspected that once I read the Big Two article but wanted to double check. Out of curiosity does the video load for you? I tried multiple browsers/devices and had no luck and my verifying that part of the hook is the last thing prior to approval. Best, Mifter (talk) 02:34, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• @Mifter: No, the video doesn't load. I'm surprised that the nominator, The C of E, hasn't weighed in here on the third go-round. I don't think it's my job to keep coming up with new hooks. I'm inclined to fail the nomination at this point. Yoninah (talk) 01:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• I didn't comment but I was watching because it looked like we were coming to a consensus. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

• The C of E, given that there have been problems verifying the hook, perhaps you could be more active in assisting the reviewers, and see whether the video can still be loaded by you and perhaps others. Maybe Cwmhiraeth is somewhere that can load it and can let us know whether it supports the hook? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

• Sorry, it doesn't work for me either. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:28, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

• Plenty of time has been given for the nominator to actually put forth some effort to get this on the main page. Without the source working, this is now a no go. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 13:16, 24 February 2018 (UTC)