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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 20:26, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

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Kammerkonzert (Hartmann)

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2126 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 12 November 2024 (UTC).

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - n
  • Interesting: No - n
  • Other problems: No - Length.

QPQ: No - Not done
Overall: Article is quite fine; it is long enough and new enough. No copyright violations detected. There is half a good hook in the proposed ALT0. The reference to Kodály should be dropped as it won't mean anything to the average person reading this hook. The implication of a causal relationship between Hartmann's inner emigration and the eventual date of this work's completion isn't quite confirmed in the article. According to this study by Andrew McCredie, the work's composition dates "suggest a long and possibly traumatic Entstehungsgeschich [creation history]", but that this observation cannot be confirmed because there apparently is no surviving documentation in the composer's papers. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

  • Incomplete nomination, QPQ not provided. Z1720 (talk) 16:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: should probably be pinged for something like this. I can give you 24 hours.--Launchballer 01:37, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
I reviewed Kings Theatre. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 02:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Let me take a look at this new ALT and the sources. One moment, please... —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
@Grimes2: This ALT has new problems, the most important being the statement that Hartmann's music was "banned by the Nazis as degenerate art". According to Michael Hans Kater, this never occurred. In the chapter on Hartmann in Composers of the Nazi Era: Eight Portraits, he states (p. 93): "Nor did the [Reichsmusikkammer] or any other Nazi authorities henceforth brand his music 'atonal' or 'degenerate', as some of Hartmann's interpreters have averred." He further stated that Hartmann was evaluated positively by the RMK as late as July 1941. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
@Grimes2 and Gerda Arendt: Both of these new ALTs revisit the same problem with ALT0: they inadvertently imply a causal relationship between the various topics they touch upon. Perhaps there was; it is very likely so, but as McCredie admitted in the aforementioned JSTOR article, lack of documentation makes this impossible to confirm. Is there any way of rewording the hook to state that it was composed during this period of inner emigration, which was a response to the rise of Hitler, but without implying that the Kammerkonzert itself was also a response to this? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
sorry for my absence, - I believe that the original hook simply states what happened in three different years without causal relation. I also believe that the name of Kodaly is the shortest and thus most elegant way to refer to Hungarian inspiration. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
The wording of the original hook inadvertently implied a relationship between the source material, inner emigration, and the work's delayed completion. I already explained the problems with ALT0, at any rate. Ideally, the hook should focus on one intriguing aspect of the work, rather than trying to fit in as much as possible. Unfortunately, material that could potentially make for the most appealing hooks appears to not be confirmed by McCredie and Kater. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
ALT2b is good. The only changes I request is for another adjective instead of "flavored", which is imprecise when referring to music and subjective, and a hyphen to join it with the preceding word. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Rock 'n' roll. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
ALT2d: ... that Karl Amadeus Hartmann finished his Kammerkonzert, a concerto for clarinet, string quartet and string orchestra, in 1935 during inner emigration?
Please forgive me: I believe that the composer's highly unusual scoring deserves mentioning in a hook about the piece more than Hitler's seizure - if we don't have room for both. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
No. The instrumentation is the least appealing fact for a hook. Stravinsky, Webern, Varèse, Schoenberg, Revueltas, Popov, Shcherbachov, Hindemith, Janáček, Ives, Chávez, Lambert, Delage, Poot, Roslavets, Roldán, Bridge, and Lourié are just among a few of the composers that had already composed works for seemingly "unusual" groupings of instruments by the time Hartmann completed his Kammerkonzert—and those are just the names that immediately came to my mind. More importantly, a reader in 2024 (or 2025, depending on when this DYK runs) who is unfamiliar with classical music may likely be accustomed to even more unusual instrumental sounds because of pop music and modern sound productions. They may even already be familiar with the ear-tickling weirdness that Juan García Esquivel, Brian Wilson, and Joe Meek cultivated and were known for as far back as seventy years ago. To a reader like that, the combo of clarinet, string quartet, and string orchestra will hardly seem "unusual" and interesting. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for a lesson in music histor. I'm afraid I was not clear. I don't think the description of the scoring should be there because of being unusual but because I don't think that our general audience will know what a Kammerkonzert is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Please understand that I wasn't trying to lecture you. My point is that the scoring isn't anything unusual in 2024 and wasn't very so even in 1935. You also admit that the instrumentation isn't unusual. And you're right: the average reader doesn't know Hartmann's Kammerkonzert. That's the point of a hook "likely to be perceived as unusual or intriguing by readers with no special knowledge or interest in the topic": to pique their curiosity into clicking on the article and learn more. The historical circumstance of its creation is precisely what would likely be the most immediately intriguing aspect of the work to a general reader unfamiliar with classical music. Because they won't care about the instrumentation of musical arcana if they're not familiar with Hartmann, or the term "chamber concerto", or classical music to begin with. ALT2c is the only one that meets the threshold of WP:DYKINT, which is why it is the only one I approved. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
The scoring is for clarinet, string quartet and string orchestra, quasi a clarinet quintet with string orchestra. That's unusual. But I prefer Alt2c. Grimes2 (talk) 21:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
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