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Template:Did you know nominations/Joan Benesh

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:17, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

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Joan Benesh

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  • ... that ballerina Joan Benesh married the man who worked out a way to record her dances?
  • ALT1 ... that ballerina Joan Benesh married the man who worked out a way to notate her dances?

Created by Andrew Davidson (talk). Self-nominated at 23:32, 2 February 2018 (UTC).

  • Article is long enough, new enough, and passes core content policies. However, the hook is a bit confusing. In this case, record means "record into a notation system." But I think it will be read, "record onto film'". @Andrew Davidson: could you reword the hook a bit so that it is more clear? I think its is almost a really good hook. Smmurphy(Talk) 07:43, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @Smmurphy: Thanks for the review. I have proposed ALT1 above which uses a more precise verb. (per OED, "notate, v. – to set down or record using a system of notation"). Andrew D. (talk) 12:04, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Great. I'll approve both, but prefer Alt1 as "notate" just seems a bit more clear to me. Smmurphy(Talk) 14:50, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Returned from prep per discussion at WT:DYK. Joan and her husband co-invented the notation according to the article and sources. I think a different hook is needed. Yoninah (talk) 17:09, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
I maintain that ALT1 is fine. The source above states, "He offered to make a system of signs to help her ... While it was Rudolf who devised these marks, it was Joan Benesh who, as a choreographer and dancer, knew exactly what function the marks had to have." So, their roles were complementary; she had the dancing expertise and requirement and he devised the notation. Other sources state "Rudolf Benesh, who invented Benesh Movement Notation and perfected it with the help of his wife..." ; "When Rudolf Benesh invented the notation in 1947"; "The invention of BMN is commonly attributed to Rudolf Benesh, with his wife Joan relegated to a supporting role in the story.... Andrew D. (talk) 22:42, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Then the article is wrong. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:19, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
It states: "... was a ballet dancer who, with her husband Rudolf, invented the Benesh Movement Notation ..." i.e. she invented it with her husband. She didn't marry the man who invented the system, she married the man with whom she defined the system. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
Rudolf devised the initial notation in 1947. They married in 1949. The system was not fully developed until 1955/6 when the Royal Ballet adopted it and An Introduction to Benesh Dance Notation was published. The latter work was credited to Rudolf and Joan Benesh because they had developed and written it together. The point is that the initial notation is not the same as the full fledged formal system which took years to develop. It's that 1% inspiration 99% perspiration issue. Andrew D. (talk) 00:10, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

We seem to be stuck. Please could a ballet expert like Smerus or Tim Riley comment on the dispute to help us forward. Andrew D. (talk) 14:49, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I am bound to disclaim the label "ballet expert". My attendance at three ballet-related editathons at the Royal Opera House was as an experienced WP editor who could help new editors with the nuts and bolts of creating and editing articles. I was emphatically not there as any kind of expert on ballet. I have heard of the Benesh notation, and that's about as far as my knowledge of this topic goes. So, apologies. Tim riley talk 15:30, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Apologies, although I am usually only too happy to allow myself to be called an expert, my two left feet and ignorance of any ballet (save for those of Prokofiev) utterly disqualify me in this sphere.--Smerus (talk) 08:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Andrew Davidson, Yoninah, & The Rambling Man, how about:
ALT2: ... that ballerina Joan Benesh married the man with whom she worked out a way to notate her dances? --Usernameunique (talk) 23:21, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
  • No, ALT2 is not quite right. See Rudolf Benesh which explains, "She was having difficulty with her attempts to write and then decipher dance steps. He then devised a dance notation system while at work in the office. He wrote some lines to represent a movement of someone at a desk, then asked someone else to decipher them. The system evolved in the period 1947 to 1955." So, she already had a method of notation but it was not working well. He devised a better method for her and they then developed and formalised it together. Let's try ALT3, which tries to convey the incremental nature of their work. Andrew D. (talk) 07:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Willing to look. ALT3 seems fine, but I'd include a link to Benesh notation, to indicate that it isn't their private thing, but THE notation. Could you please place refs at the ends of paragraphs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:50, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Since I started the article, the DNB have published an entry for the subject. I've made another pass, checking the facts against their version and updating the citations. Andrew D. (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I took the liberty to link the notation. Offline and suubscription sources accepted AGF. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
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