Template:Did you know nominations/Jesus Christus, Menschensohn
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 11:28, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Article has been merged per an AFD discussion.
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Jesus Christus, Menschensohn
- ... that "Jesus Christus, Menschensohn", an expansion of the liturgical Kyrie written in the 21st century by Helmut Schlegel, is contained in collections for young people? Source: several
- Reviewed: Edith Prentiss
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 21:28, 25 April 2022 (UTC).
A new hook may be needed here as I don't see how the currently proposed hook (i.e. a liturgy being included in a collection for young people) appeals to anyone but specialists. A hook about the stanzas may be more promising here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:22, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gerda usually has a pretty good reason why she finds a fact interesting, so let's wait for that... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:10, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure what you mean about the stanzas. I'd like to be as little theological as possible. I think that this hymn addresses Jesus 3 times, while the normal Kyrie calls "God - Jesus - God" might require rather more knowledge than the present suggestion. - Typically, "old" liturgical things like Kyrie are not for young people, - this one tries to appeal to them. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
The first stanza requests enlightenment to see God face to face. The second stanza recalls that Jesus carried on the Cross what we suffer. The third stanza requests that Jesus, called ("gerufen") from grave and death, may be with us on life's steps ("Stufen").
This part of the article could work as a hook in my opinion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)- This is a lot of theology, - what should a Muslim reader do with this information? It's also not unusual, but rather typical for Kyrie to word three things - spoken or sung - and end each with "Kyrie eleison" or "Christe eleison". I also would not know how to squeeze it fairly - mentioning all three - in a hook. This author (Schlegel) is good in wording religious things in a way appealling to young people - that's the basic message, and not only for specialists, - perhaps you can word that better? Or do you want to make it quirky by saying that he sort of rhymed the Greek "eleison" with the German "Menschensohn" three times? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the elesion rhyming thing can be mentioned/referenced in the article, sure. I'm also not sure why the theology thing is being brought up since it was far from my mind when I looked at the article and the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- No reference mentions the rhyme because it's just there (son - sohn). What about a Muslim who may know nothing about Jesus carrying the Cross. The concept of "Menschensohn" is hard enough for Christians, so I was shy there. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the elesion rhyming thing can be mentioned/referenced in the article, sure. I'm also not sure why the theology thing is being brought up since it was far from my mind when I looked at the article and the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- This is a lot of theology, - what should a Muslim reader do with this information? It's also not unusual, but rather typical for Kyrie to word three things - spoken or sung - and end each with "Kyrie eleison" or "Christe eleison". I also would not know how to squeeze it fairly - mentioning all three - in a hook. This author (Schlegel) is good in wording religious things in a way appealling to young people - that's the basic message, and not only for specialists, - perhaps you can word that better? Or do you want to make it quirky by saying that he sort of rhymed the Greek "eleison" with the German "Menschensohn" three times? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- In any case, I really don't see how being included in a collection for young people works as a DYK hook. I think something about the content itself could work better. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see any specific thing without relying on Christian background. It's unusual to call Jesus three times instead of Lord - Jesus - Lord, but I wouldn't know how to say so in 200 chars. - Need (to make) food. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- In any case, I really don't see how being included in a collection for young people works as a DYK hook. I think something about the content itself could work better. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- It seems we're stuck here so I'm asking Epicgenius to see if there's another path forward here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping @Narutolovehinata5. Regarding Gerda's statement that "'old' liturgical things like Kyrie are not for young people", I feel that this fact may not necessarily be intuitive. This especially applies if we're trying to appeal to young people, since they tend to be less involved in religion compared with their elders. Perhaps there is a better way to rephrase the hook to make this fact more evident? – Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, but I'm no sure I can do that, with my limited English. I think the hook should be about this specific song, not general reception trends.
- ALT1: ... that two versions of "Jesus Christus, Menschensohn", an expansion of the liturgical Kyrie written by Helmut Schlegel, are contained in a 2013 choral song book? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:46, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, what I meant to say is that readers may not necessarily understand the significance of including this "expansion of the liturgical Kyrie" in a song book. That is probably what NLH5 is objecting to. For example, I had to also click on the Kyrie link to understand the original hook. As for ALT1, I would say that I don't quite understand why including two versions of "Jesus Christus, Menschensohn" in a choral song book is out of the ordinary. Maybe there's something I'm missing and there is a good reason this fact is interesting. In any case, it seems to me like you want to say that "an expansion of the liturgical Kyrie, which is not typically targeted toward young people, is included in a song book for young people". I suggest we try modifying ALT0 again. Alternatively, we can propose another hook that is unrelated to Kyrie. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- If you look at the songbook, there is no other entry in it twice that I see, and it's by two different composers, telling a bit how much it is liked. I believe we need the relation to the Kyrie, because that's what it is used for in the liturgy of the mass, and without mentioning it, we'd have to translate (and probably explain) the German title, which would be longer. I bet that many of our readers will connect to Kyrie (Gloria Sanctus ...) without clicking, and for the others, there's a link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt, what I meant to say is that readers may not necessarily understand the significance of including this "expansion of the liturgical Kyrie" in a song book. That is probably what NLH5 is objecting to. For example, I had to also click on the Kyrie link to understand the original hook. As for ALT1, I would say that I don't quite understand why including two versions of "Jesus Christus, Menschensohn" in a choral song book is out of the ordinary. Maybe there's something I'm missing and there is a good reason this fact is interesting. In any case, it seems to me like you want to say that "an expansion of the liturgical Kyrie, which is not typically targeted toward young people, is included in a song book for young people". I suggest we try modifying ALT0 again. Alternatively, we can propose another hook that is unrelated to Kyrie. – Epicgenius (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping @Narutolovehinata5. Regarding Gerda's statement that "'old' liturgical things like Kyrie are not for young people", I feel that this fact may not necessarily be intuitive. This especially applies if we're trying to appeal to young people, since they tend to be less involved in religion compared with their elders. Perhaps there is a better way to rephrase the hook to make this fact more evident? – Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- To give this a proper review, the article was new and long enough at the time of the nomination, is free from close paraphrasing, the nominator has done a QPQ, and I am assuming good faith on the German sources. To clarify my point above, Epicgenius is right in that I do not see how a Kyrie being included in a collection, let alone for young people, makes for a broadly interesting hook. Regular readers may not immediately get the point, especially the ones unfamiliar with Kyries. As Epicgenius said, the intended idea is probably workable, it's just not working out with the currently proposed hooks. If this hook fact doesn't work out, we may need to use a different hook fact instead. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:05, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- ... or a different reviewer? ... or a look at ALT1?
- ALT0a: ... that "Jesus Christus, Menschensohn", written in the 21st century by Helmut Schlegel to be used in masses, has been included in several song books for young people[, even in two versions for one of them]?
- I wish it had a year, to be shorter. Better wording welcome, - it's really hard for me and takes time to phrase things to your liking. We could picture Schlegel, which would show sacred context at a glance, but that image was already on the Main page, and I'd find it unfair to repeat while so many images need to be rejected. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- ALT1 doesn't solve the original issues and is arguably even worse than ALT0: at least there's promise in the idea that a music genre that doesn't normally appeal to young people is being made to appeal to young people. ALT1 simply says that this work was included in a compilation, which isn't really a hook. It's a statement of fact, which works in an article body but doesn't really work for DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- (you probably know that "eleison" means "have mercy".) All songs of NGL are meant to make old content acceptable - or better expressed - to young people, - that's nothing specific for this hymn. I actually have another DYK in that direction, let's not bore readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
All songs of NGL are meant to make old content acceptable - or better expressed - to young people, - that's nothing specific for this hymn
Yes, but would the average reader know that? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:49, 29 May 2022 (UTC)- We had several on DYK, successfully, so the interested reader may know, and the others may not even care. I like to say something specific about a subject, quite generally so, as you know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- (you probably know that "eleison" means "have mercy".) All songs of NGL are meant to make old content acceptable - or better expressed - to young people, - that's nothing specific for this hymn. I actually have another DYK in that direction, let's not bore readers. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- ALT1 doesn't solve the original issues and is arguably even worse than ALT0: at least there's promise in the idea that a music genre that doesn't normally appeal to young people is being made to appeal to young people. ALT1 simply says that this work was included in a compilation, which isn't really a hook. It's a statement of fact, which works in an article body but doesn't really work for DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
This nom has been left hanging for two months without a single technical problem being raised. ALT0a appears to address all of the other concerns raised above. I would suggest posting without the braced section simply for brevity. Maury Markowitz (talk) 17:03, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
ALT0a says that this hymn has been included in several song books for young people, but the article only identifies Junges Gotteslob as being for young people. If other publications were for younger folk, they should be identified as such in the article. If not, then a new hook is needed as one publication cannot be identified as "several". Z1720 (talk) 17:06, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Z1720: "Junges Gotteslob" and "Freiburger Kinderchorbuch" are both books for young people. I don't think we need to explicitly point out that a book called "Kinderchorbuch" is for children. Maury Markowitz (talk) 18:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Maury Markowitz: I have never learned German (and I assume this is German) so it's not obvious to me what the English translation of "Kinderchorbuch" is. Perhaps the translation should be in the article? Z1720 (talk) 18:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Z1720: I suspect the average reader went to kindergarten and will get the "kids" part just fine. But for the sake of moving this two month old nom along, I will add it in parens. Maury Markowitz (talk) 19:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
Readding tick so promoters know this is ready. Z1720 (talk) 19:21, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't think we need our readers' time spent on reading a translation when it says (intentionally) that it is for "children's choir" which sadly has no link (yet) but should be clear enough, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Maury Markowitz: Re kindergarten: this phrase, is not used in various parts of the world, such as the United Kingdom, so they might not know what kindergarden is. Other readers did not attend school in English and may have used different phrases for these early years of education. I also don't want to assume that the vast majority of readers would make the connection between kindergarten and kinderchorbuch, especially when the word is in a different language. Since English Wikipedia is for an international audience, I think it is better to use as many English phrases as possible for descriptors.
- @Gerda Arendt: Re the children's choir: When I read the article, the phrasing specified that Raabe's setting is for a children's choir, but did not specify that Freiburger Kinderchorbuch was a children's choir book. Maury Markowitz added the translation, which specified this, but another solution might be the following change, "Raabe's setting, for choir and piano, is contained in the second volume of Freiburger Kinderchorbuch, a children's choir book published by Carus-Verlag commissioned by the Diocese of Freiburg." This would specify that Freiburger Kinderchorbuch is itself a children's choir book (this also removes the CD mention, which I don't think is needed and made the flow less desirable, in my opinion). Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 00:41, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I gave my thought, and the translation is acceptable, but also in the way of the flow. Die Träume hüten (which has a translation because I believe it helps understanding) is also a collection not for children but mainly for young people. Guard your dreams. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't think we need our readers' time spent on reading a translation when it says (intentionally) that it is for "children's choir" which sadly has no link (yet) but should be clear enough, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Z1720: I suspect the average reader went to kindergarten and will get the "kids" part just fine. But for the sake of moving this two month old nom along, I will add it in parens. Maury Markowitz (talk) 19:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Maury Markowitz: I have never learned German (and I assume this is German) so it's not obvious to me what the English translation of "Kinderchorbuch" is. Perhaps the translation should be in the article? Z1720 (talk) 18:59, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Z1720: "Junges Gotteslob" and "Freiburger Kinderchorbuch" are both books for young people. I don't think we need to explicitly point out that a book called "Kinderchorbuch" is for children. Maury Markowitz (talk) 18:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Returning the hook from prep because the article has been nominated at AfD. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion resulted into merge, and I have no energy to fight that. I merged into a list of the author's hymns, and will check if it can be expanded to be good enough for DYK. Please give me some time. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)