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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 15:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

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Ika Hügel-Marshall

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  • ... that Ika Hügel-Marshall did not meet her father until she was 46 and described it as a pivotal experience in her life?

5x expanded by Ritchie333 (talk), MelanieN (talk). Nominated by Ritchie333 (talk) at 14:31, 8 January 2015 (UTC).

  • I'll take this one. Drmies (talk) 01:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Long enough, new enough, well done, Ritchie333 and MelanieN. It needs some more copyedits before it's a GA, but not many. (And I think Sbf248 should get co-credit; without their effort we wouldn't have this important article.)

    But I am not happy with the hook--the whole "pivotal" thing is not verified in Kaplan, and ref. 12, that Lorde article, doesn't really verify it either and it does not contain the quote. My guess is that the citation is incorrect and that it's an easy fix. BTW, it's not a bad idea to check all of those, in light of a. this hook problem and b. my edit where I moved a Kaplan reference. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

  • @Drmies: I've checked the citations and reworded things here. I think you've made a fair comment that "pivotal" is not actually in any sources, but we can now have ALT1 ... that Ika Hügel-Marshall did not meet her father until she was 46 and described it as "my journey's end"? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @Ritchie333:, none of us (let's be honest) had heard of this woman until we read the article, and her story is extraordinary--its extraordinary quality lies not in not knowing her father until her forties, but in other things. She was the mixed child of a German woman and a black American soldier who left, and her mom later took up with a fucking Nazi, of all people. The girl grows up in a children's home in a racist world, is put down constantly and spat on, and comes out on top: sounds like a true American story, waiting to be turned into a movie. Can you write the kind of hook that Oprah will notice when she has her daily glance at Wikipedia? Drmies (talk) 14:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: I can, we could do ALT2 ... that Ika Hügel-Marshall was forced to undergo an exorcism because she was an illegitimate Afro-German child? ... or I could go even further and use some nasty racial epithets that would make Eric Corbett think, "hang on, that's not very WP:CIVIL is it?" that she was willing to directly mention in her biography. But the DYK rules say "Articles and hooks that focus unduly on negative aspects of living individuals or promote one side of an ongoing dispute should be avoided" and I felt that meeting her father was the most significant part of her life that was positive. Let me ping DYK expert @Fram: and get their view on it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Drmies, it would be nice to have the DYK reflect what is actually notable about her. How about something like this? --MelanieN (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
  • ALT3 ... t‬hat Ika Hügel-Marshall, the child of a German woman and an African-American soldier, grew up to become an advocate for the Afro-German community?
  • 'ALT4'‪…t‬hat Ika Hügel-Marshall, the child of a German woman and an African American soldier, grew up to become the co-founder of the Afro-Deutsch movement in Germany?
  • I'll tick this off for ALT3. 2 is great but the part that follows "because" isn't verified in Kaplan (note, Ritchie, how I tweaked the citation). It could in principle be verified by access to the book, that would be acceptable, but we don't have it in our library. It would be an enormous attraction, though. Drmies (talk) 15:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that - I don't use JSTOR much, so finally finding an article that would be improved massively by access to it was great. Actually, a search for the word "exorcism" in her autobiography on Google Books returns no hits at all, which does make me a little more uncomfortable about it being a hook. I have to agree that while ALT3 will do, I was hoping a seriously gripping hook would turn up as this is one article that I really want as many people to read as possible. I would like to take it to GA once I've got a paper copy of the autobiography (the "Activism" section is a bit brief as it stands, for one thing), but I can't find a copy online for less than £15, so it looks like a trip to the local library is in order. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Good luck with that--I have to get it through Interlibrary Loan. I also couldn't find exorcism hits... Drmies (talk) 16:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
My city library has it and I've requested it be sent to my local branch. I should have a copy within a day or two. --MelanieN (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
One thing I'll look for in the book: I found a hint in a review, not firm enough to use, about an incident when she and her fiancé went to take out a marriage license. With the two of them standing together at the registration desk, the registrar took down her fiancé's name and then asked "and where is the bride?" I wondered if that was the inspiration for the title "Invisible Woman". --MelanieN (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
And she might say, "Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you?" Drmies (talk) 00:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I like that idea. And by that time I will have had a chance to read her book, which might possibly give us a punchier hook. Am I right, User:Drmies, in thinking that you could approve a different hook even though the listing is already in the queue? If I wanted to propose a change of hook after it has been promoted, where would be the appropriate venue to discuss it? --MelanieN (talk) 15:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I have no doubt that this will be no problem. Dear DYK admin, please hold this in the pen until next month. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: @Ritchie333: I have read the book and updated the article with material from it. I didn't recognize a better hook, but take a look and see what you think. Maybe something could be done with the "invisibility" incidents, or the fact that she never met another black person until she was 39. Then let's finalize this nomination and let 'er rip, since Black History Month is now upon us. --MelanieN (talk) 19:51, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
    MelanieN, you could tweak ALT3 to include the 39 element... Drmies (talk) 20:15, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Something like : ALT5 ... t‬hat Ika Hügel-Marshall, who became an advocate for the Afro-German community, never met another black person until she was 39? ... anyway, we should think about getting this in the queue now, and once it's been on front page a few editors will copyedit it, then I think with a little spit and polish (not much) we'll be good for a GA too. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:23, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I think it has to clarify who SHE is, otherwise "another black person" is unclear. How about ALT6 ... that Ika Hügel-Marshall, the child of a German woman and an African-American soldier, grew up to become an advocate for the Afro-German community, even though she never met another black person until she was 39? Is that too long for a hook? --MelanieN (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I counted 210 characters in that, which is too long (AFIAK the limit is 200), if you can trim a few words we can go with that. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Here's a better version ALT7: ... that Afro-German advocate Ika Hügel-Marshall, the child of a German woman and an African-American soldier, never met another black person until she was 39? --MelanieN (talk) 20:36, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
with ALT7. Drmies (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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