Template:Did you know nominations/Harry Yerkes
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 16:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
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Harry Yerkes
[edit]... that xylophone player Harry Yerkes was an important figure in the transition from ragtime to jazz?
- Reviewed: Herb Lotman
- Comment: moved from draft to mainspace on the 17th.
Created by 78.26 (talk). Self nominated at 18:05, 20 March 2015 (UTC).
Hi, I'll be reviewing this hook. I performed a very light copyedit,[1] but there may be a need for further copyedits. The text in the article says, "Some of the performances of Yerkes' groups may be better classified as light classical, but many performances are an important link between ragtime and early, "rudimentary" jazz." This is sourced to Rust 2002, which is not accessible to me to verify. At first glance, this hook doesn't make sense to me, as it claims by inference that Yerkes work on the xylophone was significant for its influence on the transition from ragtime to jazz. But the text in the article (and the scholarly sources) say that Yerkes didn't really have an interest in jazz, and it was the performances by other jazz musicians in the groups he put together that were significant. I would be interested in seeing what the Rust source actually says on p. 1894, if that's the source being used to support the hook. This poses somewhat of a red flag for me, because the sources seem to say that it wasn't Yerkes work as a musician that was significant in this instance, but his work as a producer of other musicians as a bandleader or band contractor ("These groups often included his name, though he was not often an active contributor"). In other words, xylophone player Harry Yerkes was not an important figure in the transition from ragtime to jazz, but the music groups that band contractor Yerkes put together were important in the transition from ragtime to jazz, in particular, the music produced by these groups, which as far as I can tell, Yerkes did not compose for or contribute to in any significant manner. That's why the hook is problematic. Other than that, the article content looks promising. I have minor concerns about a few sources here and there (for example, the Music Trades source cites an advertisement not an article), but let's nail down the hook first. If you have an alternate hook (or several) that will give us room to move forward. Viriditas (talk) 01:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you @Viriditas: for the thorough review. First, thanks for the needed copyedit. You are correct, the hook needs to be re-written. I was trying to further identify Yerkes. He was a xylophonist, he produced and promoted jazz music, and he evidently was a fan of the genre. He participated in some of his recording sessions he set up as a contractor (but usually used the Green Brothers), but there is no indication he was a jazz player himself. Does my explanation make sense? I'll try to get the Rust quote to you tomorrow. It is at the library (I have a copy, but it is in storage somewhere). Regarding the advertisement, glad you caught that. I included it as a bookmark of sorts because it has a usable image (copyright expired), and I was going to replace the claim later when I found it. There are a couple I could use, I'll poke around to see which one is superior. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- @78.26: No worries; thank you for your interest in this topic. Feel free to propose some new hooks whenever you can. I would like to move forward with this at your convenience. Viriditas (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:, here is the pertinent text from Rust: "Yerkes, who first recorded in 1906 {note, this is an error, 1905 is correct} as a xylophonist, became a successful band contractor, and between 1917 and 1924 he booked many sessions on Columbia and other labels using various groups under his management, sometimes with results of interest as ragtime or rudimentary jazz. Some of these appeared as The Happy Six (q.v) , the others known to come within this definition are listed below..." Book then proceeds to list discographical details regarding the Novelty Five, Yerkes' Novelty Five, Yerkes Jazarimba Orchestra, etc. I will propose further hooks upon receiving your feedback regarding this source. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- @78.26: Thanks. The article still says his "performances are an important link between ragtime and early, 'rudimentary' jazz'", and cites Rust. Am I missing something? Did you want to fix the content and/or the sourcing? Please propose any alternate hooks you like. Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
ALT1... that Harry Yerkes formed his own record label while still employed as an assistant to the vice-president of Columbia Records?
- @78.26: Thanks. The article still says his "performances are an important link between ragtime and early, 'rudimentary' jazz'", and cites Rust. Am I missing something? Did you want to fix the content and/or the sourcing? Please propose any alternate hooks you like. Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:, here is the pertinent text from Rust: "Yerkes, who first recorded in 1906 {note, this is an error, 1905 is correct} as a xylophonist, became a successful band contractor, and between 1917 and 1924 he booked many sessions on Columbia and other labels using various groups under his management, sometimes with results of interest as ragtime or rudimentary jazz. Some of these appeared as The Happy Six (q.v) , the others known to come within this definition are listed below..." Book then proceeds to list discographical details regarding the Novelty Five, Yerkes' Novelty Five, Yerkes Jazarimba Orchestra, etc. I will propose further hooks upon receiving your feedback regarding this source. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:18, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- @78.26: No worries; thank you for your interest in this topic. Feel free to propose some new hooks whenever you can. I would like to move forward with this at your convenience. Viriditas (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you @Viriditas: for the thorough review. First, thanks for the needed copyedit. You are correct, the hook needs to be re-written. I was trying to further identify Yerkes. He was a xylophonist, he produced and promoted jazz music, and he evidently was a fan of the genre. He participated in some of his recording sessions he set up as a contractor (but usually used the Green Brothers), but there is no indication he was a jazz player himself. Does my explanation make sense? I'll try to get the Rust quote to you tomorrow. It is at the library (I have a copy, but it is in storage somewhere). Regarding the advertisement, glad you caught that. I included it as a bookmark of sorts because it has a usable image (copyright expired), and I was going to replace the claim later when I found it. There are a couple I could use, I'll poke around to see which one is superior. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:. There, that should be uncontroversial. No jazz. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm happy to review this hook, but I'm curious why we keep having a communication disconnect in this discussion (and on your talk page). If you prefer to use the older version of the hook per the sources, all you would have to do is change it to the following or a variation on the following:
- @Viriditas:. There, that should be uncontroversial. No jazz. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:40, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
ALT2... ... that band contractor Harry Yerkes managed musical groups that played an important role in the transition from ragtime to jazz?
- @78.26: That's precisely what the sources say, so I'd like to know why we are in disagreement about this. In this context, he is neither notable for his xylophone playing nor for his link to the transition from ragtime to jazz based on his role as a musician. The sources make it clear that he's notable for managing the bands that were notable for this music. I'm really not looking for a DYK credit here, so feel free to massage ALT2 to something that works for you, otherwise I'll complete this review based on ALT1. Let me know. Viriditas (talk) 01:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
ALT3... that sometime musician and band contractor Harry Yerkes managed musical groups that played an important role in the transition from ragtime to jazz?
- @Viriditas: There's nothing wrong with ALT2. It doesn't really cover the scope of his overall musical contributions, but it's a hook, not the entire article. Sorry this has been more wikistress for you than you bargained for. I don't care if you get a DYK credit, you've spent enough time on it. But if you are asking me to propose an ALT3 so that we don't need a third party, I've written the above, hopefully there is no ambiguity. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 03:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- 78.26, I'm just making it clear that I don't want a DYK credit; I'm not one of those DYK collectors. In any case, I like ALT3, but can you please remove "sometime"? It's not needed because the context of musician is clear here, unlike the original. Also, try not to repeat the same or similar word in the hook. You've now got "musician" and "musical" groups. I recommend changing musical groups to "bands" since you added "musician" to the hook. I didn't add it because it isn't important to this particular hook, but it's obvious we disagree on that point. Viriditas (talk) 10:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: Excellent suggestions. I changed it to "ensembles" instead of "bands" because per your sage suggestion I did not want to repeat the word "band" as it already appears in "band contractor." Besides, "ensembles" is more accurate anyway, as the groups often involved strings. Thank you. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 13:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- ALT4... that musician and band contractor Harry Yerkes managed ensembles that played an important role in the transition from ragtime to jazz?
- 78.26, I'm just making it clear that I don't want a DYK credit; I'm not one of those DYK collectors. In any case, I like ALT3, but can you please remove "sometime"? It's not needed because the context of musician is clear here, unlike the original. Also, try not to repeat the same or similar word in the hook. You've now got "musician" and "musical" groups. I recommend changing musical groups to "bands" since you added "musician" to the hook. I didn't add it because it isn't important to this particular hook, but it's obvious we disagree on that point. Viriditas (talk) 10:31, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- @78.26: That's precisely what the sources say, so I'd like to know why we are in disagreement about this. In this context, he is neither notable for his xylophone playing nor for his link to the transition from ragtime to jazz based on his role as a musician. The sources make it clear that he's notable for managing the bands that were notable for this music. I'm really not looking for a DYK credit here, so feel free to massage ALT2 to something that works for you, otherwise I'll complete this review based on ALT1. Let me know. Viriditas (talk) 01:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Good to go for ALT4. Per the above, original hook had issues. While the individual parts of the original hook were accurate by themselves, when placed together they presented several problems discussed above. The new hook (ALT4) solves this problem by closely following the source material. Per the above discussion:
- ✓ Pass Article is new and eligible as it was moved from draft to mainspace within the last seven days of its nomination.
- ✓ Pass Article is long enough (2666 characters)
- ✓ Pass Article is within policy
- ✓ Pass Hook format, content, neutrality and interest confirmed.
- ✓ Pass QPQ OK.