Template:Did you know nominations/Graham Clark (tenor)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
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Graham Clark (tenor)
... that Graham Clark appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 16 seasons, notably in 1988 as Loge and Mime in the Ring cycle directed by Harry Kupfer and conducted by Daniel Barenboim?Source: several- Reviewed: El Yucateco
- Comment: Sadly, the image is not free.
Improved to Good Article status by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 13:14, 12 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Graham Clark (tenor); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
The article was promoted to GA status on time and a QPQ has been done. I checked the source for the hook fact; I do not speak German so I would assume good faith, but I counted and it does seem he did appear in 16 different years. My main issue is the hook. It's far too complicated and the extra details detract from the main point. The hook is supposed to be about Clark and not Kupfer and Barenboim and I do not think their mentions are necessary. Personally if we have to go with that hook fact, I think it would suffice to mention just the 16 seasons part, which should already be impressive enough for a non-specialist audience. Reading the article, I do not see why Loge and Mime are singled out as the notable role here, so I do not think the mention of that role is necessary since it seemed arbitrary. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Looking at the article, I do see other possible hook options here that may be possible alternatives. For example, the article mentions that before he became an opera singer, he was a physical education teacher. That seems quite surprising and might be an interesting hook. Another possible hook could revolve around his Emmy nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I recommend you to read a bit about The Ring, at least to get that Mime and Loge are two different roles. You may not know Kupfer and Barenboim, but others will, and it places him in a league. This is a person who just died and who is remembered for having performed these roles, with always new ideas (he about the music for Loge: "At times it is loud and declamatory whilst at others it is beautifully lyrical. It is also tight, brief, mocking, ironic and sarcastic, full of mood changes, with crisp, sharp, pointed and sarcastic alliteration." - sadly too long for DYK), who lived for that, not for the sports job he left decades ago. Perhaps word a hook about him appearing as Mime in a woman's dress, if you absolutely need a crowd-pleaser. - I'm working on Renata Scotto, another of these great names of the past, and I'm almost happy that the article is too long for DYK temptations, while I admit that I hoped to attract a few more to Berit Lindholm than those who came just by the name, 6k+ yesterday, to attract them by saying how great she was. - Quite generally: can we do that at least for those who died recently: say something substantial about what they lived for, instead of something tangential?
- Perhaps also read a bit about the Bayreuth Festival, mentioned on OTD on 13 August, namely the section about the Ring productions. I give you a shorter hook, but I think adding the names helps people to remember which Ring it was, better than the year alone.
ALT0a: ... that Graham Clark appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 16 seasons, notably in 1988 as Loge and Mime in the Ring cycle?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)- The source does not explicitly single out Loge and Mime as being their primary role, which is actually the main reason I was against it being mentioned. If you want, as a compromise, I could offer this revised version of ALT0a instead:
- ALT0b: ... that Graham Clark, known for portraying roles such as Loge and Mime in the Ring cycle, appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 16 seasons?
- There's a slight distinction here that might not be easily gotten by a non-native speaker, so I'll explain it this way. The article itself and the sources, while saying his work as Loge and Mime were great, do not single out those particular roles as the highlight of his 16 seasons. Instead, they say they were among his best roles. The revised wording matches my reading of the sources and article better: it still mentions the roles but mentions them more as an example of his work and not specifically because they were the defining roles of his career. Indeed, even the Guardian obituary only lists them as "among" his roles, not specifically them being the roles he was best known for. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:09, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for reading the obit thoroughly. "The characters of Mime and the fire god, Loge, were two of Clark’s best known roles" - that's what it says, and gives the exact number for those two roles. I am open to different wording, but I'd prefer the roles at the end, not the number. He began in Bayreuth with small roles, active for a few minutes, and Loge and Mime are the highlights of the roles in Bayreuth. How to say that best? Add "fire god" for interest? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Again, the source says "were two of Clark's best known roles", not that they were his best-known roles. Maybe this is being lost in translation but there's a difference in nuance between being the most famous roles and being among the most famous roles. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Again: they were without doubt the most important in Bayreuth, and the hook speaks only about Bayreuth. Trying to please, with fire god and dwarf, to tell those who don't know by the names that these are not heroes but interesting characters (which is what he wanted, not the Italian lovers):
ALT0c: ... that the tenor Graham Clark appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 16 seasons, portraying the fire god Loge and the dwarf Mime in the 1988 Ring cycle?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)- Saying that those roles were "without doubt the most important in Bayreuth", unless there is a source explicitly saying so, might count as WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH if it is an editor's personal opinion. As for the fire god thing, it's just adding too much complexity to the hook. What's wrong with ALT0b? It's basically saying the same thing and focuses on the main point, which is that he appeared there for 16 seasons. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- I hate to tell you what's wrong. This "most important in Bayreuth" was only for your information, ALT0c doesn't have it.
- ALT0d: ... that the tenor Graham Clark appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 16 seasons, portraying the characters Loge and Mime in the 1988 Ring cycle?
- If I had more time, I'd write an article about that 1988 Ring, as I did for 1976. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Saying that those roles were "without doubt the most important in Bayreuth", unless there is a source explicitly saying so, might count as WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH if it is an editor's personal opinion. As for the fire god thing, it's just adding too much complexity to the hook. What's wrong with ALT0b? It's basically saying the same thing and focuses on the main point, which is that he appeared there for 16 seasons. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Again, the source says "were two of Clark's best known roles", not that they were his best-known roles. Maybe this is being lost in translation but there's a difference in nuance between being the most famous roles and being among the most famous roles. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for reading the obit thoroughly. "The characters of Mime and the fire god, Loge, were two of Clark’s best known roles" - that's what it says, and gives the exact number for those two roles. I am open to different wording, but I'd prefer the roles at the end, not the number. He began in Bayreuth with small roles, active for a few minutes, and Loge and Mime are the highlights of the roles in Bayreuth. How to say that best? Add "fire god" for interest? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- The source does not explicitly single out Loge and Mime as being their primary role, which is actually the main reason I was against it being mentioned. If you want, as a compromise, I could offer this revised version of ALT0a instead:
- Looking at the article, I do see other possible hook options here that may be possible alternatives. For example, the article mentions that before he became an opera singer, he was a physical education teacher. That seems quite surprising and might be an interesting hook. Another possible hook could revolve around his Emmy nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
In the interest of this moving forward and ALT0d not really having anything objectionable (ALT0d and ALTOb basically say the same thing, just a difference in where Loge and Mime are mentioned without emphasizing that they were Clark's best known roles) I will leave it to the promoter to decide which hook wording to use. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for understanding. Promoter,
please note that Narutolovehinata5 made ALTob and should not also approve it.I wanted to be nice and not say what's wrong with it, but for clarity, and not wrong just not better: for someone unfamiliar, ALT0b says that he appeared, not as what, could be an actor, - also: while in the other hook the Bayreuth Festival is mentioned early, setting the stage for Wagner and only Wagner, the piece is left without an author in ALT0b, so might be something such as The Lord of the Rings. I'll stop here and hope. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2023 (UTC)- Technically speaking ALT0b is just a rephrasing of ALT0a and thus doesn't actually need independent approval since it doesn't introduce a new fact. Reviewers are allowed to introduce minor revisions to hooks as long as they don't add new facts; only when a new fact is added or the hook is substantially different would a new reviewer be needed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Fine, so you think it's just a rephrasing, accepted, no new facts. So just what I noticed above, such as Bayreuth Festival coming too late to inform that it's all about Wagner, and his performance is not marked as singing and acting, could be just acting (until we reach Bayreuth). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Technically speaking ALT0b is just a rephrasing of ALT0a and thus doesn't actually need independent approval since it doesn't introduce a new fact. Reviewers are allowed to introduce minor revisions to hooks as long as they don't add new facts; only when a new fact is added or the hook is substantially different would a new reviewer be needed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for understanding. Promoter,