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Template:Did you know nominations/Fish soup bee hoon

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PumpkinSky talk 00:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

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Fish soup bee hoon

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A bowl of fish soup bee hoon, photograph taken 27 May 2013

Created by Bonkers The Clown (talk). Self nominated at 13:34, 24 May 2013 (UTC).

  • This article appears to meet most of the criteria, however the "Preparation" section looks a bit brief to me and I would like to see a little more detail there before giving this a pass. Gatoclass (talk) 14:55, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the review. Much appreciated, but is it really a must? I really can't find more. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 15:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, one source at least states that the fish head/fish bones are boiled "for hours" to give the dish a somewhat creamy consistency, you could add that to start with. Gatoclass (talk) 15:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Done as requested. Hope it's alright now. :-) ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 08:03, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
I've given it a tweak myself, however, now I'm not sure about the hook as only one establishment is known to make the soup with brandy and it doesn't use fried noodles, so a new hook may be necessary, but I can't think of one right now. Gatoclass (talk) 11:04, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I know at least four other stalls which use brandy, but I can't add that it. Well, the hook doesn't suggest that it's consumed together, so I guess it's okay. I want it to sound quirky, you know, like milk with fried noodles (?) ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Quirky is fine but incorrect is not. I guess the existing hook might work with the addition of a phrase such as "a range of ingredients including ...". Gatoclass (talk) 11:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, implemented. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay, I have verified the article, all that is required now is for someone to verify the hook. Gatoclass (talk) 15:07, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  • The image of brandy is not in the article. Also, I don't think an image of brandy would make any significance whatsoever, as brandy may be replaced with a substitute by someone else. Haven't check the article yet. --George Ho (talk) 16:47, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I know what's for my lunch later... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 06:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
I shall replace the picture with that of a bowl of the dish once I have it. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 06:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:DYK (or WP:DYKSG, I added the image in the article. Since I'm not sure how the hook is good as a lede, considering the size of the article, I'll have someone else review the whole nomination. --George Ho (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't accept the claim made in the article that "fish soup bee hoon was invented in the 1970s". For example, I read in O Singapore! that "'Fish very good and expensive', said Mr Chow enthusiastically, 'very good for fish-head bee-hoon soup, like my mudder and grandmudder used to make'." That was written in 1989. My impression that the claim would refer to a particular recipe such as adding XO sauce. But bee hoon just means rice vermicelli and so the name is quite generic. The Damenlou Hotel claims to have been cooking fish heads with noodles in Singapore since the 1920s. Warden (talk) 11:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The source for the 1970s writes the "definitive" version of the dish. Perhaps that makes a difference? Damenlou may have cooked fish heads with noodles since 1920s, but have they been cooking fish head bee hoon since the 1920s? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:26, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
The sources 1 and 2 in the Damenlou article are dead and I cannot verify. There is a mention of Sui Ji in this article, still. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
  • The hook talks of "a range of ingredients" and so suggests that there is no definitive version. Again bee hoon (or bihun/mifun) just means noodles. The Damenlou appears in books such as Malaysia, Singapore & Brunei: The Rough Guide, "Tang Swee Kee hawked the first bowl of his trademark ka slum fish-head noodles more than sixty years ago". Warden (talk) 11:39, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks so much Warden... Now done! :) ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:34, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Warden's concerns appear to have been addressed so this article is again ready for review. Gatoclass (talk) 11:14, 28 May 2013 (UTC) Gatoclass is credited especially for addressing issues. --George Ho (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I have taken another look. I appreciate Bonker's good work but still reckon that there's more to be done. The article involves commercial claims and so we should raise the quality of the article some more to make it policy-compliant. Can we start by defining the topic better, please. For example, is the dish necessarily soupy? It bothers me that the lead talks of soup but doesn't mention noodles at all. I haven't eaten this dish myself and so can reasonably play the part of a reader who is not already familiar with the dish. Warden (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

You can have your fish and chips without fish, not illegal. The name says it all, I thought it was pretty obvious that fish soup bee hoon contains both soup and bee hoon and fish. Commercial claims? I thought of including the stall names to make it more specific. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:19, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
  • This is the English language wikipedia and so most readers will have no idea what bee hon means - I had to look it up myself. In clarifying the claims made by various establishments, it seems we need to understand exactly what the dish is. Fish and chips I understand much better and, without the fish, it's just chips and may be another dish such as the chip butty. If we were to mix these up or make claims for the invention of the dish, I'd expect some heat and worry that the same might happen here. Anyway, to be specific, if you have stir-fried fish-heads with noodles but not swimming in soup, is that the same thing? Warden (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, there's always a useful wiki link... But say you went to a restaurant, on the receipt it would still state fish and chips as you are ordering it still, though only in essence and without the fish! It's different from ordering a plate of chips only from the start (price too). Anyway how are the claims mixed up? I fixed them and addressed Mr. Swee as the creator. I want to reiterate, buying fish and chips without fish is not the same as ordering a plate of chips... Okay here in Singapore, fish soup bee hoon soups will very much entertain requests to not put the soup. The end product is still called fish soup bee hoon... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:54, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Since both sources list Swee Kee as the pioneer, there isn't much dispute over who invented it, but only when... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have had a good trawl through the sources again, both from the article and online. It seems you got every scrap of information there is to find out there. If the result is a bit incoherent, it seems that's because most every hawker has their own way of making the dish, and so the exact recipe varies. We don't require perfection at DYK, and so this seems good enough to go with. By attracting many eyes, the final polish can be left to our readership. Warden (talk) 13:21, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks! ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
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