Template:Did you know nominations/Es ist genug

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 23:50, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Es ist genug

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Bach: "Es ist genug"

... that Bach's setting of the chorale "Es ist genug" (It is enough), with a melody beginning with a whole-tone sequence, was quoted with variations in Alban Berg's Violin Concerto? Source: several

Reviewed: ~~to come~~ Liwonde National Park
Comment: Can we make a crop of just the four first notes? - On vacation, more (hopefully) later today.

Converted from a redirect by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 09:34, 9 November 2017 (UTC).

New enough and long enough. However ... the hook fact isn't cited in the intro, and even more to the point the citation in the body only leads me to an online catalog of scores, nothing that confirms the fact by itself. If "several" sources in the article support this, I'm sure one could put there—and in the intro—to support the stated fact. Daniel Case (talk) 23:34, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, on vacation, not my top priority. There are three facts, the whole-tone scale, which is pictured, here and in the article on the whole-tone scale, the Bach setting, and the quotation by Berg, in the Violin Concerto's article. All called "Writing music history". Will look into individual facts, and if more refs need to be copied to the hymn article from the three others. I thought I did it, but - I'm on vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: OK, but I'd still like to be linked to something saying explicitly that Berg quoted Bach in that concerto. Daniel Case (talk) 00:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Understood, so please wait until I'll be home (tonight) and did the things of higher priority not managed during vacation (such as upgrading the Bach cantatas of last Sunday, - no idea when that will be, hopefully tomorrow). - What you ask for is in the quotation at the end, and even in English: "The second movement [of the Berg concerto] begins with the J. S. Bach chorale Es ist genug: 'It is enough!" I hesitate to repeat the ref in the middle of a quotation, but it could be done. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:23, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Just put it at the end of the quotation. Daniel Case (talk) 05:34, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Back home. I am not sure why you want ANY ref in the intro which should be a summary of sourced facts from the body, - refs in the lead are only needed for quotations.

I've been told during other DYK reviews that the hook fact needs to be cited the first time it appears in the article (WP:LEADCITE is not as prescriptive and limiting as people seems to think; it allows for this). So I am applying the rules as they have been applied to me. Daniel Case (talk) 05:34, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

I have written about 200 DYK articles this year alone, and none of them had cites in the lead. But as you wish, until after DYK. - I keep telling others in my reviews that the cites in the lead are distracting, and that facts cited in the body don't need one. Perhaps clarify on DYKTALK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:48, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Ref Dümlin: "Kunstvolle Variationen über den Bach-Choral "Es ist genug" bilden den Schluss des Violinkonzerts" (Artful variations on the Bach chorale 'Es ist genug' form the conclusion of the Violin Concerto".

Ref Glass: "Further to Klemperer's comments: the chorale employed comes from Bach's cantata O Ewigkeit, du Donnerwort, BWV 60 (Oh Eternity, Thou Fateful Word). It has a subtitle, "Dialogue Between Fear and Hope," and its text contains the words "Blessed are those who die in the Lord," both surely intended by Berg as references to Manon. Finally, the "Es ist genug" chorale is not actually by Bach but by Johann Rudolph Ahle (1626-1673): harmonized by Bach, immortalized by Berg."

+ what Klemperer said, mentioned above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:07, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

David, do you think the image could be cropped to show only the beginning, with the "whole-tone" explanation on top? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Gerda: Like this?

—David Levy 03:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

David, that's great, but would be even better without last the note, but leaving the rest, because the first four notes cover "Es ist genug", and a rest afterwards looks meaningful ;) (Thinking of "They rest from their labours").

Daniel, please look again. Memory of the dead is not for Advent ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Gerda: I've adjusted the image accordingly. —David Levy 14:25, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Gute jetzt. Und frohes Thanksgiving!. Daniel Case (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. Germany's is in October but I have enough American family to know the great day ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:28, 22 November 2017 (UTC)