Template:Did you know nominations/Bartaman Bharat

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Miyagawa (talk) 09:58, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Bartaman Bharat

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... ~~that in Bartaman Bharat, Swami Vivekananda suggested not to forget the poor people and to honour and treat every Indian as a brother?~~

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Rhode Island International Horror Film Festival

Created/expanded by Titodutta (talk), Nvvchar (talk). Nominated by Titodutta (talk) at 23:26, 9 September 2013 (UTC).

I'm concerned about the line about the distressed and the poor. That line seems like a very close paraphrase of the source. Could you reword that another way? Ex. "Vivekananda's essay showed deep concern for India's distressed and poor. He urged Indians to treat each other as brothers despite their caste."--v/r - T P 14:48, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

@TParis: I have made changes. ALT1 * ... that in Bartaman Bharat, Swami Vivekananda urged Indians to treat and honour each other as brothers? --Tito☸Dutta 15:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Was this a new concept in India at the time? Can Vivekananda be credited with being a pioneer of this concept? That might add to the "interesting" part of the DYK hook.--v/r - T P 16:01, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

@TParis:, a) I am not sure about the first question. I don't know if it was a new concept in 1900, but, b) it was and it is one of the most powerful and influential sayings. I started reading it from my nursery school days. I read in Bengali. Here is the part from Wikisource:

Modern India quote

O India! Forget not that the ideal of thy womanhood is Sita, Savitri, Damayanti; forget not that the God thou worshippest is the great Ascetic of ascetics, the all-renouncing Shankara, the Lord of Umâ; forget not that thy marriage, thy wealth, thy life are not for sense-pleasure, are not for thy individual personal happiness; forget not that thou art born as a sacrifice to the Mother's altar; forget not that thy social order is but the reflex of the Infinite Universal Motherhood; forget not that the lower classes, the ignorant, the poor, the illiterate, the cobbler, the sweeper, are thy flesh and blood, thy brothers. Thou brave one, be bold, take courage, be proud that thou art an Indian, and proudly proclaim, "I am an Indian, every Indian is my brother." Say, "The ignorant Indian, the poor and destitute Indian, the Brahmin Indian, the Pariah Indian, is my brother." Thou, too, clad with but a rag round thy loins proudly proclaim at the top of thy voice: "The Indian is my brother, the Indian is my life, India's gods and goddesses are my God. India's society is the cradle of my infancy, the pleasure-garden of my youth, the sacred heaven, the Varanasi of my old age." Say, brother: "The soil of India is my highest heaven, the good of India is my good," and repeat and pray day and night, "O Thou Lord of Gauri, O Thou Mother of the Universe, vouchsafe manliness unto me! O Thou Mother of Strength, take away my weakness, take away my unmanliness, and make me a Man!"

CC SA attribution: Copied from Wikisource, text is under PD-1923, PD-India.

Do you suggest to add a part of this quote in the article? If yes, then which part? We have already quoted the sentence "treat as brother". --Tito☸Dutta 16:23, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Add something about the historical impact for those of us who are not from India.--v/r - T P 18:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

@TParis: I have added a short section "significance". --Tito☸Dutta 04:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I meant in the DYK hook to meet the "interesting" requirement. Why were Vivekananda's remarks unique at the time which led to their historical importance in India?--v/r - T P 12:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

@TParis:, following your suggestion, I am trying to to make changes—

ALT2 ... that in Bartaman Bharat, Swami Vivekananda suggested that a purpose of our education should be providing service to the humanity? Tito☸Dutta 02:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking for something like this: "...Swami Vivekananda urged Indians to treat and honour each other as brothers despite their caste, considered radical for the period, as early as 1905?" So I'm looking for that bit that gets non-Indians to say "Ohh wow!"--v/r - T P 12:52, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe this can help, I found this source which says "As early as in the 1890s, Vivekananda was the first to talk about interfaith harmony, peace and universal spiritual brotherhood, far before it became absolutely necessary for the survival of mankind in the 20th and 21st centuries." I think that's just what this hook needs and then it's GTG. What do you think?

ALT3 * ... that Swami Vivekananda was one of the first in India to talk about spiritual brotherhood, urging Indians everywhere not to forget the poor people and to honour and treat every Indian as a brother in his 1905 essay Bartaman Bharat?

It might be long, but perhaps you can trim it? You'd need to find a way to include this in that article, though.--v/r - T P 13:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @TParis: thank you for offering an ALT. Multiple issues a) Vivekananda died in 1902, so he urged in 1905 is confusing b) considering another Indian (man) as brother and a woman as mother/sister is a 3500-year old Indian concept, Vivekananda's essay was significant, and is widely referred, I don't know about 1905. c) after edit conflict, Vivekananda wrote many books and delivered lectures. The source does not mention this essay. But, it was an excellent attempt to find source, do not suggest hook, else you'll not be able to review this DYK. See ALT3 please

ALT4 ... that in Bartaman Bharat, Swami Vivekananda (pictured) urged Indians to consider the soil of India as their heaven and the good of India as their own good? --Tito☸Dutta 13:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Take ALT1 and add the part about the caste system.--v/r - T P 23:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

ALT5 ... that in Bartaman Bharat (1905), Swami Vivekananda felt that India was in a "terrible danger" and suggested not to foolishly imitate the West? Tito☸Dutta 04:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Article meets sourcing and length requirements, hook meets formatting and length requirements, hook contents are in the article and cited, and hook is interesting.--v/r - T P 13:39, 14 September 2013 (UTC)