Template:Did you know nominations/Bardhyl Çaushi
The following is an archived discussion of Bardhyl Çaushi's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know
(talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.
The result was: rejected by —♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 06:55, 24 April 2013 (UTC).
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Bardhyl Çaushi
[edit]- ... that Bardhyl Çaushi, dean of law of the University of Pristina who died in Serbian prisons, was posthumously awarded the "Golden Medal of Independence" by President Ibrahim Rugova?
- Reviewed: Dakshayani Velayudhan
Created by ZjarriRrethues (talk). Self nominated at 19:53, 8 March 2013 (UTC).
- Hey, the Google translate from Albanian to English vouches for the Golden Medal. But there is no reference for the bit that says he was a dean of law at University of Pristina. Should provide a citation for that. Ashwin147 (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
- That info about Serbian prison as location is disputed and unsourced, and more important, that was FR Yugoslavia then, Serbia is independant since 2006. This is POV pushing, unless hook is changed, i would say No to this. DYK must not have disputed or questionable info, and specially in WP:ARBMAC area. --WhiteWriterspeaks 02:54, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- I've added a source as regards his academic career. WW, the sources use the term Serbian prisons and I tend to stick them, so it'd be prudent not to accuse me of POV-pushing and mention ARBMAC. Joining DYK reviews[1]of articles I nominate in order to stall them with WP:IDONTLIKEIT is also disruptive. That being said, the use of the terms "Serbian prisons", "Serbia", "Serbian troops" etc. can be verified by the actual reviewer in all sources like:
- Among the ethnic Albanians held in Serbian prisons were several prominent individuals. .. Other prominent individuals included .. Bardhyl Çaushi, dean of Prishtina University Law Factultly (feared dead) Helsinki Committee (Greek chapter)
- The last case that I would like to present to you today, distinguished members of Congress, from the endless list of the Kosovar hosttages kept in Serbia, includes Mr. Bardhyl Caushi, the Dean of the School of Law of the Pristina University Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe of the US Congress
- Meanwhile, the Milosevic regime continues to hold Albanians from Kosovo in Serbian prisons, in many cases without charges. At a minimum, the prisoners are mistreated; more accurately many are tortured. Some prominent cases were highlighted: ... and Bardhyl Caushi, Dean of the School of Law, University of Pristina Helsinki Committee (Central chapter) US Congress report
--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- You know that we agreed not to use Serbian per historical consistency. Serbian, per etnicity, and Yugoslav, per country, despite sources.Serbia is independant since 2006. Also, none of those explicity said that he died in Serbian prison, but that he was in prison there. Also, that is not the most relevant data for this person. While you have sources for word Yugoslav also. I will raise this question on talk page, with relevant data and links, so this should wait conclusion of that. p.s. DYK is on my watch for years, in cases of similar questionble entries like this one. --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, other editor already posted the same info on talk. Talk:Bardhyl Çaushi Well, yes, that is open question, and it should be fixed there, so, i propose not to write here anymore until we solve this on talk. --WhiteWriterspeaks 19:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- An explanation on Serbian sovereign status is explained in good faith here. This is not aimed at any specific editor but ZjarriRrethues is absolutely correct about one thing. Many editors who like to tarnish the Serbian name indeed take an WP:IDONTLIKEIT approach to the fact that it was not independent for the time of their editing. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 19:18, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, other editor already posted the same info on talk. Talk:Bardhyl Çaushi Well, yes, that is open question, and it should be fixed there, so, i propose not to write here anymore until we solve this on talk. --WhiteWriterspeaks 19:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
Needs a new reviewer; nothing done for over two weeks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:15, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- ALT1 (sourced) ... that Bardhyl Çaushi, dean of law of the University of Pristina was posthumously awarded the "Golden Medal of Independence" by Ibrahim Rugova?
- Yes, this was not review, just observations. I proposed ALT that is actually sourced, while article itslef is alo fixed. We do not have even one source where he died, and Rugova was not officially president, as this happened in 2005, while Kosovo declared independance in 2008. Main page must not be tool of propaganda. --WhiteWriterspeaks 11:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
- Ibrahim Rugova was President of Kosovo and Çaushi's body was found, identified and returned from Serbia per the sources. Btw keep your comments on their section and don't them add them below the nomination.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- Please, dont be ignorant of facts. DYK is not the best place to push POV. We do not have sources for first hook. Second maybe. I propose to you to strike out first hook, in order to speed up the nomination. --WhiteWriterspeaks 15:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that he was imprisoned in Serbia and his body was identified and returned from Serbia is sourced.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- But information where he died is not. Neither is sourced that Rugova was in 2005 president of the state selfproclamed in 2008. C`mon, we are not idiots here... --WhiteWriterspeaks 00:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- Right, we are not idiots but some editors clearly think that the readership comprises idiots - or simpletons who believe anything the contributor reports. Concerning Rugova, it is a tangled web. He was president within the framework of the unrecognised Republic of Kosova from 1992, but the position gained prominence after the UNMIK handover. So the title was at all times from 1992 to 2008 in some precarious state of transition. One more thing that can only be addressed by tagging and supplying notes. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 07:20, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- But information where he died is not. Neither is sourced that Rugova was in 2005 president of the state selfproclamed in 2008. C`mon, we are not idiots here... --WhiteWriterspeaks 00:43, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
- The fact that he was imprisoned in Serbia and his body was identified and returned from Serbia is sourced.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
- Please, dont be ignorant of facts. DYK is not the best place to push POV. We do not have sources for first hook. Second maybe. I propose to you to strike out first hook, in order to speed up the nomination. --WhiteWriterspeaks 15:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
(unindent)The sources say that he was kidnapped and transported in Serbian prisons, that his remains were found in Serbia and then they were returned to Kosovo along with other killed civilians from the same town. To ask for a direct quote about the detail "killed in Serbian prisons" is inane, but for the sake of finalizing this review I've changed the hook to:
- ALT2: ... that Bardhyl Çaushi, dean of law of the University of Pristina, found killed in Serbia, was posthumously awarded the "Golden Medal of Independence" by Kosovan President Ibrahim Rugova?
Note that president links to President of Kosovo and of course the sources don't dispute that he was President of Kosovo. Btw Evlekis you're under editing restrictions for causing disruption on this topic and have been warned for violating your restrictions[2], so it'd be prudent to stick to the sources and the decorum.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:13, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Hehe, found killed. You are insulting us again. He was NOT found killed, but dead. With that new link, it is even worse. That link points to current president of RoK, so again, wrong. Drop your POV, and this may pass one day. But, it is already too old for DYK... --WhiteWriterspeaks 18:21, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes too old and shrouded in controversy. Restriction nothing, every editor should stick to sources but the manner in which you use the terminology is rotten to its roots. If someone were changing Serbian prisons for Mexican bunkers then your argument would be valid, however providing the precision required in reporting to which entity Serbia belong at the time is a necessity - particularly in light of the fact that it is today an independent country and could be interpreted to have been so then if the unversed reader stumbles across the page. The statement and the apologetic article are not DYK material, period. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 19:38, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Right now this nomination needs an independent reviewer to give the article and hooks a full review, something it hasn't yet had.
- I'm rather astonished at the assertions that this article is "already too old for DYK" and "not DYK material, period". The first is demonstrably untrue by looking at the significantly older nominations still making their way through the DYK process (one from February 19 was approved only two days ago), and the second, despite use here and in other places, is rarely so cut and dried. I don't see any definitive support in the cited source for the phrase "killed" in ALT2, but "found dead" or "found in a mass grave" is supported, so those are alternate routes. Is part of the disagreement that the hook should say "Serbia and Montenegro" rather than "Serbia"? As for the President of Kosovo wikilink, I did follow it, and found Ibrahim Rugova not only in the History section but in the Lists section and as "Inaugural holder" in the infobox as well: the article covers all the presidents, not just the current one. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:45, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Hello BlueMoonset. I could explain two of these things, firstly the presidential affair. If I didn't explain myself properly it is because the only two users I thought were involved (WhiteWriter and ZjarriRrethues) knew the situation. Anyhow, here's the synopsis: amid the problems in the SFR Yugoslavia which led to its break-up, Kosovo was one of the entities to declare independence (as Republic of Kosova) - it received a diplomatic recognition from Albania. Now it was within this widely unrecognised state that the President of Kosovo was ushered into existence though in reality, local control was disputed between the self-proclaimed republic and the institutions loyal to the central government in Belgrade. De facto control chopped and changed according to who controlled which part. At one stage, the self-proclaimed republic was open for business with Mališevo as serving capital. Anyhow, you know what came next in the late 1990s and when after the Kumanovo Treaty the Yugoslav security forces departed Kosovo according to the terms, the proponents of the self-proclaimed republic laid down their claim on sovereignty as the entire international community with no exceptions acknowledged UN Resolution 1244. Then in 2008 Kosovo again declared independence only this time it has been successful in obtaining widespread recognition. Rugova died in 2006 but within Kosovo, the institutions which exist today have continuity through the "UNMIK 1244 period" (1999-2008) right back to the creation of the original republic. Now if we are to edit neutrally and precisely, these points need to form part of the article; as indeed the second point about sovereignty, Serbia and Montenegro was the state in 2005 and this replaced Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which is how it was in 1999. Obviously, Serbia per se existed throughout and their prisons are their own, I am not against mentioning this but for a plethora of precision-based reasons, we need to acknowledge the sovereign state. Concerning the other matters, WhiteWriter has more knowledge on these than I do. Thanks. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Blue, unsourced controversial articles used to push national agenda on wiki main page are by far not DYK material. --WhiteWriterspeaks 22:14, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- Hello BlueMoonset. I could explain two of these things, firstly the presidential affair. If I didn't explain myself properly it is because the only two users I thought were involved (WhiteWriter and ZjarriRrethues) knew the situation. Anyhow, here's the synopsis: amid the problems in the SFR Yugoslavia which led to its break-up, Kosovo was one of the entities to declare independence (as Republic of Kosova) - it received a diplomatic recognition from Albania. Now it was within this widely unrecognised state that the President of Kosovo was ushered into existence though in reality, local control was disputed between the self-proclaimed republic and the institutions loyal to the central government in Belgrade. De facto control chopped and changed according to who controlled which part. At one stage, the self-proclaimed republic was open for business with Mališevo as serving capital. Anyhow, you know what came next in the late 1990s and when after the Kumanovo Treaty the Yugoslav security forces departed Kosovo according to the terms, the proponents of the self-proclaimed republic laid down their claim on sovereignty as the entire international community with no exceptions acknowledged UN Resolution 1244. Then in 2008 Kosovo again declared independence only this time it has been successful in obtaining widespread recognition. Rugova died in 2006 but within Kosovo, the institutions which exist today have continuity through the "UNMIK 1244 period" (1999-2008) right back to the creation of the original republic. Now if we are to edit neutrally and precisely, these points need to form part of the article; as indeed the second point about sovereignty, Serbia and Montenegro was the state in 2005 and this replaced Federal Republic of Yugoslavia which is how it was in 1999. Obviously, Serbia per se existed throughout and their prisons are their own, I am not against mentioning this but for a plethora of precision-based reasons, we need to acknowledge the sovereign state. Concerning the other matters, WhiteWriter has more knowledge on these than I do. Thanks. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
- Evlekis, thanks for the explanations. WhiteWriter, if that is the case, then an independent reviewer will insist on changes. However, that review is going to happen, and you and Evlekis need to step back and let the regular DYK processes take their course. You've already made your opinions clear, and I expect the reviewer will take into consideration the various statements made here so far, and there will be adjustments made to the article's wording before it's all over. Thanks. Reiterating the "reviewer needed" icon per above, lest the intervening comments be thought of as the start of a review. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:28, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Of course, provided the points raised are taken into account, the path to process is clear by me. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 18:53, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Per BlueMoonset: ALT4: ... that Bardhyl Çaushi, dean of law of the University of Pristina, imprisoned and found dead in Serbia, was awarded the "Golden Medal of Independence" by Kosovan President Ibrahim Rugova?
- That being said, the review should finally take place without WW's disruptive decorum.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:35, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I am not disruptive, but your pov pushing articles and DYK`s are. Instead of beeing unfriendly, rude and non cooperative as usual, you could try to gain agreement here or on talk, but that is too much i suppose... Thanks Blue, that is really it, i am off. But if someone of "friendly" editors arrive just to pass it without any word, i will react instanty. All best to all. --WhiteWriterspeaks 21:40, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Independent reviewer still needed; listing icon again as the last one is hard to see. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:16, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
New. 300 words so long enough. A good use of notes to help clear confusion. Can see from link given that he was awarded the Golden Medal. The "Dean of Law" link takes you into a huge document that I tried to find the source material within - but was unable to do so. The part about being "Imprisoned and found dead in Serbia" isn't immediately backed up by a ref - I've looked thru the links, but can't seem to find the source for this. With said source(s) provided though, I think it's okay for an AGFtick - Hillbillyholiday talk 11:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
