Template:Did you know nominations/Alistair Hinton

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Alistair Hinton

(

)

... that the young Alistair Hinton, enthused by Kaikhosru Sorabji's Opus Clavicembalisticum, persuaded Sorabji to revoke his ban on performances, made 40 years earlier?

Reviewed: William de Courcy (died circa 1114)

Created by Smerus (talk). Self nominated at 08:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC).

The article is new and long enough. But it kinda feels incomplete. It doesn't follow our WP:LAYOUT with lead missing and no sections. That's at a glance. But further reading shows that the article is just about his career. Is no information about his personal life available? Its a biographic article after all. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 08:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this - I have added sections as you suggest. As regards 'personal life', I think you are missing the point. The article is about his career as a musician and composer (not just about his career). There is no information about his personal life available, and doesn't need to be for a Wikipedia article - see articles on many other contemporary composers, and also see WP:BLPSTYLE. Best,--Smerus (talk) 09:17, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I would completely disagree with you if you say that this biographic article is complete with no mention of anything other than professional career. Hence i would pass it on to a different reviewer now. Rest all is good. Hook is verified. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:02, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I am mystified. The article isn't up for FA. It seems from what you say it meets DYK. Hinton is not a rock star, and he is a living person. So his private life is neither here nor there for WP purposes.--Smerus (talk) 17:47, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It doesn’t meet DYK in the sense that the article is not complete. But that's evidently a matter of perspective. Am sure there are many editors who would not have this problem. That's why i have asked for another reviewer to see this. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 18:00, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I am surprised that you, Dharmadhyaksha, expect any article to ever be complete. Franz Kafka, for example, in a sense the most successful article so far, could still be improved.

The article is new enough and long enough, well sourced. Please look for consistency in the presentation of Op. numbers, and for typos, - "etiud" looks like one, but I may be wrong. The hook is interesting, but for my personal taste too complicated. I also think it should mention that it is about musical composition, and I would find the four hours interesting. Awaiting an alternative or two, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:32, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for these comments. 'Etiud' is Hinton's title - apparently the Polish for 'Etude'. I have standardised the Op. refs as you suggest. The problems with the hook are Sorabji's long name and long titles, and the 200 character limit! However, here are some alts:

ALT1: ... that, enthused by Kaikhosru Sorabji's four-hour piano work Opus Clavicembalisticum, Alistair Hinton persuaded him to revoke his 40-year-old ban on performances?

ALT2:... that Alistair Hinton has written a homage to Richard Strauss for euphonium and piano?

ALT3:... that Alistair Hinton's string quintet includes parts for double-bass and soprano, and takes about 165 minutes in performance?

--Smerus (talk) 05:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, all good to know! I thought rather of streamlining the original hook (typo there fixed), what do you think of this?

ALT4: ... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban on performances of his works, including Opus Clavicembalisticum, after 40 years?

ALT 4 is nearly there, except that the wording could be taken to mean that the ban was to be revoked 40 years after Hinon's intervention, and/or could mean that the ban was on Hinton's works. So I suggest:

ALT5: ... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban, which had stood for 40 years, on performances of his own works, including Opus Clavicembalisticum?

or,

ALT6... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban, which had stood for 40 years, on performances of his own works, including the four-hour Opus Clavicembalisticum?

ALT6 is 193 characters, including spaces.--Smerus (talk) 07:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

We are getting closer. I would like to see first what kind of ban, than the duration. (I would lose interest otherwise.) One duration or the other, please:

ALT7... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban on performances of his own works, including Opus Clavicembalisticum, a ban that had stood for 40 years?

ALT8... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban on performances of his own works, including the four-hour Opus Clavicembalisticum? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I marginally prefer ALT8 as neater, but am happy with either. Best, --Smerus (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

For the four hours, we need a ref right behind that statement. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You can use http://www.mus.ulaval.ca/roberge/srs/06-timin.htm as a reference for the work's length. Toccata quarta (talk) 13:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I linked the composer a few times, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment: please note that the correct title is Opus clavicembalisticum (not Opus Clavicembalisticum). It is not clear when exactly Sorabji "banned" performances of his music (see the article Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji), so I would go for "roughly/some/almost four decades / forty years". Claiming that he "banned" performances of his music is not accurate either (again, see the article on Sorabji). Toccata quarta (talk) 13:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Sourced, but we now need to make a slight change (also in view of the above). Actually the article does not deny that he banned performances, only that the ban had no legal force. Sorabji's refusal to allow performances, and his relaxation of that refusal, is covered by the citation in note 5, so that should be OK.

ALT9: ... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban on performances of his own works, including the four-hour Opus clavicembalisticum?

Smerus (talk) 13:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The article actually says that he banned "unauthorised performances". He gave permission at least to Egon Petri, who, however, didn't get around to preparing Opus clavicembalisticum for performance or recording. Toccata quarta (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Then, to keep everyone happy,

ALT10: ... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to revoke his ban on unauthorised performances of his own works, including the four-hour Opus clavicembalisticum?

171 characters (with spaces). Best, --Smerus (talk) 13:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

With regard to content, I would settle for that version. Let's see what others think. Toccata quarta (talk) 14:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Help! I am confused. In a way then nothing changed, he simply authorised more than before? ALT10 reads as if he now encourages unauthorised performances. So one more, let the readers get curious about the exact kind of ban:

ALT11: ... that Alistair Hinton persuaded composer Kaikhosru Sorabji to relax the ban he had placed on performance of his music, including the four-hour Opus clavicembalisticum? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

As I have now copyedited the article to make it clear the ban was on unauthorised performances, ALT11 conforms to article text, and the reader of the article will be clarified, so it should be OK.--Smerus (talk) 14:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Some readers will indeed click on the links, but I doubt all of them will. There way too many myths about Sorabji and his music out there, and I prefer to always set the record straight. The 2012 edition of The Oxford Dictionary of Music, to give just one example, promotes the myth that Sorabji's mother was Spanish-Sicilian ([1]). Toccata quarta (talk) 14:28, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

TQ, I am easy on this. Let us have a version which is acceptable to you, I am sure we can agree on it.--Smerus (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I was OK with ALT10, and still am. Toccata quarta (talk) 14:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Over to you then, Gerda - can we agree ALT10?--Smerus (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Next round: I described my problem with ALT10. I think "relax the ban" is precise enough. As someone who loves to see bans relaxed, it's still my favourite. To "set the record straight" is the job of the article, not the hook, which should raise attention. I am certainly someone who doesn't want to promote myths ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Then Gerda you can be bold - in an area which is only a matter of opinion, rather than principle :-} --Smerus (talk) 16:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

offline sources accepted AGF, all hooks possible, but ALT11 preferred (rewording of ALT6 with "relax").

ps: I hear my father now quoting (Bismarck?): "Ein Mann mit Prinzipien ist einer, der mit einer Bohnenstange quer im Mund durch einen Wald gehen will." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)