Talk:Zulmé Dabadie

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Birth date

User:Pierregil83 has found a primary source for the birth date of this singer. Is there a secondary source that supports the identification of this birth document document with the subject of the article? Is the "Zulmé Leroux" born in 1795 the same as "Louise-Zulmé Le Roux", a student at the Conservatoire de Paris who, according to Constant Pierre in 1900, is recorded in the school's documentation as having a birth date of 20 March 1804? Fétis's 1860 biography of the singer [1] may be the first to give the date of 20 March 1804. Subsequent authors may have relied on his date, which could possibly be incorrect. Did Constant Pierre use Fétis, or did he rely on the records of the Conservatory? Apparently Le Roux (or Leroux) was a common name. There is another Le Roux in Constant Pierre's book who was a student at the Conservatoire de Paris, a Clara Le Roux, born in Boulogne-sur-Mer on 5 March 1806. Was this her younger sister? I noticed that Mme Dabadie's 1877 obituary in Le Ménestrel also says she was 82 at the time of her death, but the same article goes on to say she was "dix-sept ans" (17) when she made her debut as Antigone in Sacchini's Œdipe à Colone on 31 January 1821. This may be based on Fétis. [She would have been 16, if born on 20 March 1804.] Théodore Lajarte on the other hand records in that "Mme Leroux" made her debut in 1821 in the title role of Gluck's Iphigénie en Tauride [2], and that "Mme Dabadie" sang Antigone from 1827 to 1830 [3]. How can we decide? Should we perhaps state that our sources of information disagree and are inconsistent, and that there is some uncertainty regarding her date of birth and other information? In any case, I don't think we should be deleting citations to "reliable" sources that disagree with our preferences. --Robert.Allen (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bonjour, ce cas arrive fréquemment dans les articles en français, et nous, contributeurs français de Wikipedia, nous les modifions fréquemment à cause de sources d'autorité qui sont souvent erronées (bnf, etc..). Nous avons la chance d'avoir des sources primaires en ligne pour l'état civil, et personnellement, cela fait plusieurs années que je corrige des articles, avec des mauvais état-civils qui sont mal sourcés. Par ailleurs, je suis généalogiste depuis 40 ans, et je reconnais facilement les erreurs. J'espère que vous accepterez ces sources qui sont réelles. D'ailleurs, dans les références de l'article en français, je cite aussi le mariage de sa fille Claire Dabadie, née en 1837, qui se marie en 1866 avec Edmond Guillaume. Voir référence numéro 14 dans l'article. Vous pouvez lire l'acte de mariage en ligne qui donne l'âge de la mère de Claire, Louise Dabadie, qui correspond à une naissance en 1795. Si vous avez besoin, je peux essayer de traduire ces actes de l'état civil. J'ai cherché pendant plusieurs heures dans l'état civil de Boulogne en 1804, il n'y a absolument aucune naissance de Zulmée Leroux. Par ailleurs, son acte de décès en 1877 cite le nom de son mari, Henri-Bernard Dabadie, elle a "quatre-vingt-deux ans" = eighty two years old = born in 1795. Ici, l'article nécrologique qui donne son âge

[4]. Je peux essayer de le traduire si vous voulez. Pierregil83 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pierregil83 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Pierregil83: Thank you for finding this birth record. I've uploaded view 460 to File:Birth record of Zulmé Leroux – Archives départementales du Pas-de-Calais, Boulogne-sur-Mer, section des Cazernes, acte de naissance n°66 dressé le 24 vendémiaire an IV, vue 460.png. If you have time, could you provide a transcription in French to the Description field on that page? --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to Tamvaco (Les Cancans de l'Opéra, 2000, p. 920) she was born on 15 October 1797. I have a print version, but here is a link to a Google Books snippet view. This does seem to confirm the day and the month, if not the year. Are we certain about the year 1795? --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:35, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the birth certificate in french : "Ce jour d’hui, vingt-quatre vendémiaire l’an quatre de la République, est comparu en la maison commune par devant moi, Nicolas Paillet, officier public, le citoyen Benoît Leroux, musicien demeurant en cette commune, section des Cazernes, accompagné des citoyens Etienne Dougnac, maître de danse, âgé de quarante un ans, tous deux demeurant en cette dite section susdite, lequel Leroux m’a déclaré que Louise Pallasalle, son épouse légitime, est accouché le jour d’hier à quatre heures du matin d’une fille qu’il m’a représentée et à laquelle il a donné le prénom Zulmée. D’après laquelle déclaration que les témoins susnommés ont certifiés véritable, j’en ai rédigé le présent acte en ladite maison commune, que le comparant et lesdits témoins ont avec moi signés."

Translation : "Today, twenty-four Vendémiaire, year four of the Republic, appeared in the common house in front of me, Nicolas Paillet, public officer, the citizen Benoît Leroux, musician residing in this commune, section of Cazernes, accompanied by the citizen Etienne Dougnac, dance master, forty-one years old, both living in this aforesaid section, which Leroux told me that Louise Pallasalle, his legitimate wife, was given birth yesterday at four in the morning of a girl he represented to me and to whom he gave the first name Zulmée. From which declaration which the aforementioned witnesses have certified true, I have drawn up this deed in said common house, which the appearing party and said witnesses have signed with me."

Here is the french republican calendar if you need to search or check a date : [5] You should know that the Republican years straddled 2 Gregorian years, thus, "an quatre" (the fourth year of the Republic) begins in autumn 1795 and ends in autumn 1796. With this calendar, you cannot make any mistake. See also [6].--Pierregil83 (talk) 06:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]