Talk:Zouk

Untitled

I was in the process of deleting the zouk love article and start off with the zouk article as if it was merged and I realized that this is not going to work out very good. Zouk beton or zouk, the original zouk have a history too and should have its own section. It's true that the style is not as popular these days, but this music have a history. Believe it or not, the fast rhythms of zouk are still being heard in African and Caribbean genres, soca, bouyon, kuduro, gumbe, soukous, etc. Don't just forget about the music like it never exsisted just to please compas fans....it is not a good idea. If there is no zouk , there is no kassav...and by deleting this article to please compas kassav will just be another compas band and not the legend they are today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 04:08, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Zouk beton was a fast carnival jump up beat born and died in the 80s. it was too fast. That's clear to me. You can talk bout their initial expectation and why the beat faded away if you want? what history? You want to make it a priority talking about something that only lived a short time? want to create a whole page for that? For your info there is no fast zouk in African music but the contrary.

Again, nobody is pleasing compas fans. Compas has a legitimate history in the Caribbean and elsewhere and Yes Cassav is a compas band; its music repertoire is 90% compas music.Pintade (talk) 05:22, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Please please please...this is not gonna be wise. it will be more confusing for readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.192.218.161 (talk) 04:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC) .......Actually, that bottom article make more sense.

The Problem and why to merge?

The problem is that the zouk commonly spoken of today, is the zouk-love also known as the French Antilles compas music. Zouk béton is the genre that lost its ground and I believe that it should have its own page. Zouk-love should have the zouk page with zouk-love redirecting itself to zouk. Also, if there are going to be two pages, there is no reason why zouk must have excessive details of zouk-love and compas music. This is why it would make more sense to have zouk and zouk-love combined. That way the article of zouk can describe the béton and the love forms all on one page. There can be a redirect from zouk-love to zouk. It can mention that it stopped the upbeat tempo and the zouk commonly known today is the zouk-love. To have two separate pages with basically the same information is like having cadence rampa and kadans separate when kadans is just the creole way of spelling cadence. Those pages were identical. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:34, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Alternatively, why not write a comprehensive <<zouk>> article that explains the various sub-genres, including how they diverged and how/when they gained/lost popularity? (I myself cannot write it, because I'm only familiar with the 1980s <<zouk>> popularized by the band Kassav', and even that I did not find very interesting listening.) Acwilson9 (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Needs work

This article needs some work -- the grammar's a mess, it doesn't always follow a coherent line of thought, and people keep adding their favorite zouk artists to the main text. --Jay (Histrion) (talk • contribs) 19:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Vegetable Basket needs its own page. This page really needs some work. I added the genre box on the right side. Needed:

-clean up some of the dead-links in the page. 
-make the page conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Music_genres/Guidelines
-Add History section, Artists Section, Samples Section
-Give every country - subgenre of zouk their more well defined sections.
-Add a page for Vegetable Basket.

-- User:Aphimmer 14:43, 22 January 2007

I wanted to do a translation from the French page... It's actually weaker in most areas. Naniwako 00:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Naniwako

It's still not well written. Acwilson9 (talk) 22:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Zouk music style vs zouk dancing styles

Please keep dancing style topics seperate from music style topics. The main topic of this article is about the music style Zouk and the dancing styles are in the dancing section and should stay there. Also I think Vegetable Basket needs it's own Wikipedia page.

This is why I separated the Zouk-Lambada dancing style and gave it a seperate page. It is a bigger topic than the Zouk music style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caco de vidro (talk • contribs) 21:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Soukzouk spam

I removed the following text added by 201.19.98.168:

Soulzouk was created in 2005 by China a teacher from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Soulzouk, or zouk "freestyle" is a new way of dancing zouk that is from Brazil. More contemporary, it differs from traditional Brazilian Zouk by a new way to connect with the music. This way of dancing is not based only on the pace, but on the melody of the song, which means it can, not only be danced with zouk music but also with a variety of musical genres like rap or R 'n'B. The gentlemen leads not only his hands and arms, but also with his legs, shoulders and head. Also, the Soulzouk brings great movement inovations with the twist steps, “table” cambrés and many others already well known such as the “suicide” and “body jump”.

There are a number of reasons why the text should be removed:

• It is frequently added to this page and removed afterwards.
• The author keeps using capitals.
• The text uses very subjective terms like: "new way of dancing", "the way of dancing", "great movement improvements".
• This style is the personal style of China.
• The text says nothing about the fact that it is a minimal movement style.

French Polynesia

Zouk music was also popular in French Polynesia when I was there some 10 years ago. Perhaps this should be mentioned in the article? The Jade Knight (talk) 04:44, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Zouk versions

Are there different versions of Zouk? I know there are numerous styles, but is there a Caribbean version versus say, a Euro version? I'm only familiar with the Zouk that I've heard from Africans. And, when you write "Afro-Zouk", what do you mean? Does that limit it to francophone countries (like Burkina Faso)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajpaj (talk • contribs) 17:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

As one can read in the Soukous article, in the 1980s a lot of the same Paris-based studio musicians (from French Antilles [West Indies], Zaire [now DRCongo], central Africa, etc.) played on many of the popular zouk AND soukous recordings, causing some stylistic overlap. (I'd add citations to both articles, but my books on the topic are buried somewhere in boxes in my home...maybe next year.) Acwilson9 (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Confusing intro

The introduction, in particular the first two paragraphs is rather confusingly written. It's difficult to understand what it's supposed to mean, so I won't venture to rewrite it, but please consider the fact that the introduction should explain the topic in a neutral and concise way to somebody who knows nothing at all about the subject. --bonadea contributions talk 16:46, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

The zouk definition is honest and exact; there is no confusion. In fact it really clarifies what the zouk is.

French Antilleans of Martinique and Guadeloupe have been playing compas since it was introduced to them in 1955. The Sicot brothers who toured more frequently the Islands than Nemours called their meringue music cadence to differenciate it from Nemours'compas. So there was one compas or cadence style. In the 80s after using the MIDI technology Antillean kassav created a new style with the electronic sound, the real zouk beton: a fast tempo mix of African, calypso, gwo ka and mosly compas or cadence. That was the zouk and it faded away quicly because of the speed and energy, it was a carnival style. The French Antilleans who had never stopped dancing and playing compas went back to business and started promoting compas as zouk. Lately the zouk love has been used as a remedy to erase compas influence in the Islands. Unfortunately the propaganda only cannot sustain the style. On all the so-called zouk CDs you could in reality listen to compas.

The first paragraph reminds readers that the only zouk style was a fast tempo. Not the zouk love which in fact compas music. I am not sure of the veracity of the first part of the second paragraph, however, the second part shows the real origination of the world zouke, introduced by Haitians compas bands in the French Antilles.

The zouk section contains exagerations. For example: In Cabo Verde through the 70s, 80s, 90s...many artist featured compas music. (Tito Paris/ danca mami Creola...) now because French Antilleans have been there they want to call the influence zouk. The truth is that the zouk as featured is not a style but the French Antilles compas. The zouk love is the French Antilles compas. This has been confirmed by Peter Manuel in his book (Non Western Musics, 1988...) when two things are indistinguishable they are one. I posted it but it has been erased over and over.

Thanks

Pintade (talk) 16:18, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

No. The first paragraph does not even mention that it's a kind of music. It says that Zouk is a "jump-up carnival beat". Is that like a heartbeat? Would cardiologists read this article? Or is it violence; are cops beating up black kids again? Carnival - you mean like Cirq du Soleil? 'Jump Up'- there's a lot of reasons for people jumping up - especially in Cirq du Soleil.

I know that you mean it's a style of music - it's just that you didn't say that, and that's the most important thing about what 'zouk' is.

What's a better word for what you mean - is it 'musical cadence'? A kind of rhythm? Whatever phrasing you use, make sure the word 'music' is in there. Imagine the person reading it, doesn't know english very well, and they pick out words that they recognize, and try to figure out the meaning. They get lost really easily if you leave out the obvious.

You mention a couple of other styles of music, I never heard of any of them. Nor that band you mention. Nor, Zouk itself. I'm just into other kinds of music, a lot of hard rock, philip glass, NIN, Björk. I actually flunked music in junior highschool. Never took it again.

OsamaBinLogin (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

I changed the first sentence of the article to clarify that <<zouk>> IS music. (FYI, for anyone who was skeptical about this fact, the Kassav' article confirms it.) (I do not have expertise on the above discussion about <<zouk>>, <<zouk love>>, <<cadence>>, and <<compas>>/<<kompas>>, so I made no changes to the rest of the paragraph.) The whole article is still poorly written, unfortunately. Acwilson9 (talk) 22:47, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Zouk vs Africa

Please do not write aberrations. Was African styles that influenced the creation of Zouk, and not vice versa. Besides all the styles shown, as supposedly having origin or influenced by Zouk (which I obviously deleted), are styles that have existed long before the Americas had been discovered.

And please don't confuse Zouk with Kizomba, the styles are similar but they are not the same.

And the rare bird who wrote that Kuduro was influenced by Zouk-love has never heard kuduro in his life. lol Zorglub-PRV (talk) 18:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 January 2013

I would like to add a disambiguation line since the article "Zouk (club)" exists

gssq (talk) 19:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done. JohnCD (talk) 14:11, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect deletions by editor Pintade

This editor loves to delete good referenced text, who do not comply with what he says, for unreferenced text he claims (without evidence) to be the truth. I strongly advise that some editor more active than I, check all is edits and put in order blocking him if necessary. In the past I had several problems with him, and it seems that he returned to the attack. Zorglub (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose merging Zouk-love into the article Zouk. The Zouk-love article admits that it is the same as zouk and it seems like the articles discuss the same history. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

We do have this opinion but not much more. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:39, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Authorship of Charles De Ledesma and Gene Scaramuzzo

Adding to this removal, first the YouTube video does nothing to confirm that statement. Second, Charles De Ledesma looks to be a lecturer at the University of East London[1] in Arts and Digital Industries and I have no idea how that would relate to musicology. The only book of his at Amazon is related to Malaysia[2] and there's no evidence. Gene Scaramuzzo does look to be a writer for AllMusic[3] but that's not a source for that point. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I have some reserve about this Cola zouk part: "From the 80’s there is a strong influence from zouk music. In some cases there has been a fusion of the zouk-love with the coladeira, to what several names have been given as cola-zouk, cabo-love, kizomba, etc.[9] But in other cases the performance is practically a zouk copy. In this variant, the rhythm and instrumentation are copied from French Antilles zouk music."

1) In the 80s there was no fast carnival beat zouk beton influence in coladeira. The tittle zouk beton wasn't too popular at the time; finally as stated in the coladeira 3rd part, the influence was compas. 2) zouk is repeated about 5 times; I guess it makes sense even once to remind people about zouk being the French Antilles compas, mostly when the 3rd part of coladeira talks about compas influence in the 80s.

So my suggestion is until a solution can be found to counter this confusion (going to a place with an existing music style and rename it) to add (zouk, the French Antilles compas) RegardsPintade (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Distorting a source in the zouk-compas debate.

I have removed the following line from the intro: "Actually, zouk is the French Antilles compas music, also called zouk-love." The source cited is: Peter Manuel, Musics of the Non-Western World, Chicago press University 1988p74

First off, I think it's a really bad idea to let a dispute between editors spill over into the actual article, as is evidently the case here. You should never have a wiki article with a line that basically says, "Actually, what you just read isn't true".

More importantly, the line I have removed distorts its source, Peter Manuel's Popular Musics of the Non-Western World. On page 74, the page cited in the article, Manuel says the following: "Compas enjoys great popularity in Martinique and Guadeloupe. More closely associated with these islands, however, is zouk, a similar genre which reflects a closer orientation towards disco." Notice how he's saying that zouk and compas are similar. He's not saying there are one and the same thing, which is what the line I've removed from this article suggested. He even points out how they differ, with zouk bearing a closer affinity to disco. Now, Manuel does go on to stress the influence that compas and zouk have had on each other, and that the Martiniquan "idiom" of zouk is almost indistinguishable from compas, but again, that's not saying they're the same thing. To suggest that Manuel is saying that zouk is just another name for compas is to distort his writing. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 23:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I should clarify that when Manuel refers to the Martiniquan idiom being virtually indistinguishable from compas, the idiom he is referring to is biguine music specifically, not zouk in general. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Original research

I have requested comment about the imposition of original research on this page (eg here) at the No original research noticeboard (WP:NORN). 31.49.14.137 (talk) 09:39, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Zouk-lambada disambiguation

Per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Determining_a_primary_topic, this article (about a Caribbean beat) is the primary topic. The purpose of the {{About}} template is to guide readers to secondary topics that are strongly associated with the article title. A Google search indicates that "zouk" referring to a dance is a popular search result. Regardless of whether someone thinks that is "correct" is besides the point. The fact is "zouk" is used to refer to more than one thing in common usage. It's not Wikipedia's job to decide what is more "correct." OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:14, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Example of Caribbean Zouk artists

These can be verified on any music sites. Example of Caribbean Zouk artists and producers: Nichols, Harry Diboula, Ali Angel, Ludo, Warren, Njie, Marvin, Alan Cave, Jim Rama, Fanny J, Kénédy, K-reen, Princess Lover, Priscillia, Perle Lama, Phyllisia Ross , Leila Chicot, Priscillia, Franky Vincent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.46.130 (talk) 23:02, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Any listed artists should be so significant that they have a Wikipedia article. And the sources should be solid and reliable. Binksternet (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

@Binksternet: Not all Caribbean zouk artists will have a wikipedia article. I have provided reliable sources, please verify the sources before deleting.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Reen https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Francky_Vincent https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Alan_Cav%C3%A9 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Diboula https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Andrey https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leila_Chicot http://phyllisiarossmusic.com/ https://www.last.fm/tag/zouk/artists?page=1

Your sources have not been very solid... The list assembled by Last.fm is not reliable because it has no author. And self-published sources are not appropriate. Binksternet (talk) 02:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@Binksternet: I have listed the artists Wikipedia pages, official websites, articles by other reliable news sites - What is not reliable here? By the way, The wikipedia french page has the artists that you are questioning https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouk

Example of Artists and Connection with Brazilian Zouk

Example of zouk Artists were added, author keeps deleting for unreliable sources.

Sources Zouk Singer Milca Origin https://haitiglobal.com/audio-interview-with-zouk-artist-milca-8f64a6e65763 Zouk Singer Kaysha Origin https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kaysha

Brazilain Zouk http://www.brazilianzoukcouncil.com/dance-education/history-of-brazilian-zouk/

List of Zouk Singers https://www.last.fm/tag/zouk/artists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.41.46.130 (talk) 19:37, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Rateyourmusic.com is not reliable. See WP:ALBUMAVOID. Last.fm is not reliable for classifying genre. If somebody is not very widely known, like Milca, then they will not be listed. See WP:LISTPEOPLE. Binksternet (talk) 02:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@Binksternet: so I am almost restricted to list artists that are already on wikipedia. what about confusion with Brazilian Zouk and Zouk (Caribbean), what is wrong with the sources?

Haiti

Where is Haiti mentioned when talking about Zouk or Compas ? Why discredited Haiti always be done with no efforts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.56.5.175 (talk • contribs)

Requested move 8 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 02:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

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Zouk (musical movement) → Zouk – WP:TWODABS, the only other article called zouk is Zouk (club) (named after the former), which gets less than half the views and is hardly as significant as the most popular music genre in several Caribbean nations. See Britannica, Grove, etc. Every single Google Books result refers to the genre, including books devoted entirely to it. A hatnote linking the club suffices in this case. Neodop (talk) 02:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom (pageviews 1 Jan-1 Sep). This could have been a technical request to revert a recent undiscussed move (2 Sept). Station1 (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:38, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.