Talk:Zayd ibn Haritha al-Kalbi

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Untitled

The article was a mess. I completely rewrote it. I did not check the facts given in the previous version of the article. Since they are completely unreferenced, there may still be inaccuracies. I did get some material from Watt. I will add a references section when I have time. Also left a Qur'anic reference blank. Need to look that up.

I removed bit re Zayd's son -- if this wasn't Zaynab's son, then there must have been another marriage. I can't find that info. Let's leave the son out until we can figure out who his mother was. Zora 08:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora, Zayd's first wife was the ex-slave Baraka, who is in fact mentioned in this very article! Their son Usama was too young to fight at Uhud but he was allowed to fight at the Trench, so he must have been born in 611 or 612. According to Ibn Saad's Tabaqat, Zayd married at least four times and had at least three children.Grace has Victory (talk) 22:38, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your ignorance is as great as your ego. This is the last time i address you in any way. May you have a terrible life, death and afterlife. --Striver 17:39, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article is a mess. The information about Zayd's having been a slave, declining to return to his natural family, then being freed and adopted by Muhammad - is all described three times, with next to no new information in each retelling. The facts about his early life should be collapsed into one single narrative with no repetitions.Grace has Victory (talk) 10:28, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

cleanup

No sources, poor language, missing wikipedic form. --tickle me 01:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Linking to ibn

Striver, you linked Zayd, ibn, and Harithah. I removed the links. They are absolutely unnecessary -- in fact, they're confusing. I kept your note re dark skin, but moved it lower. Zora 04:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The editing was good, good job, but why did you de-link them, why are they confusing? I find it informative to get the meaning of the names.... --Striver 07:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Linking isn't the way to explain names -- you just put something in the text. However, I don't think it's necessary to explain ibn or bint -- or if they're to be explained, linking to Arabic names might be a better choice.

I don't think that we link to "de" or "von" or suchlike particles in articles about Europeans. Zora 08:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citation needed.

I am once again removing the following sentence because it has lacked a source for some time.

He lived with Muhammad and Khadijah in their household in the city of Mecca, in the Hijaz region of western Arabia. [citation needed]

Please do not revert it without adding a source. I refer you to the following, at http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Tagging_unsourced_material .

Don't be inappropriately cautious about removing unsourced material.

To summarize the use of in line tags for unsourced or poorly sourced material:

# If it is doubtful but not harmful to the whole article, use the {{fact}} tag to ask for source verification, but remember to go back and remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time.

Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 14:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So why are you just choosing to remove that last part of that section? For all you know, the guy adding the tag might had something against the entire section. Or maybe, he acctualy liked the section, and simply requested for the source of the great info? What makes you so confident that it must be removed, and that it is only that randomly selected last part of the entire section that must go? Again, the info is not controversial and is informative, IMHO, just remove the tag. --Striver 10:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I removed as little as possible. There seem to be other assertions in the article that are unsourced as well, but nobody has specifically asked for sources on them. Yours very sincerely, GeorgeLouis 15:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And that is were my objection comes in, you are assuming that the one who added the tag wants the info removed, and you are assuming that you have pinpointed the subject of the tag, and i see no evidence of either assumption. Please provide evidence for the assumption, or stop removing informative text that needs mere sourcing. Peace. --Striver 17:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just following WikiP policy. As a great man once said, "I just work here." Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 19:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lol, we all do - lets keep intending and working to improve wikipedia :) --Striver 21:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation of Link

I have noticed that you have added Disambiguation link of his children Zayd, such links are appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by International Editor Shah (talk • contribs) 10:49, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Misrepresentation of Source

The Passage is referenced to three different sources but there is a problem, Reference Books contains information related to subject but the content of this Passage represent an entire different story.

Ibn Sa`d and al-Tabari both cite this tradition about their divorce.

Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Hayyan narrated. The Messenger of God came to Zaid ibn Haritha's house seeking him. Perhaps the Messenger of God missed him at that time, that is why he said, "Where is Zaid?" He went to his house seeking him and, when he did not find him, Zainab Bint Jahsh stood up to [meet] him in a house-dress, but the Messenger of God turned away from her. She said, "He is not here, Messenger of God, so please come in; my father and mother are your ransom." The Messenger of God refused to come in. Zainab had hurried to dress herself when she heard that the Messenger of God was at her door, so she leapt in a hurry, and the Messenger of God liked her when she did that. The heart of the Prophet was filled with admiration for her. He went away muttering something that was hardly understandable but for this sentence: "Praise be to God who disposes the hearts." When Zaid came back home, she told him that the Messenger of God came. Zaid asked, "You asked him to come in, didn't you?" She replied, "I bade him to, but he refused." He said, "Have you heard [him say] anything?" She answered, "When he had turned away, I heard him say something that I could hardly understand. I heard him say, 'Praise be to God who disposes the hearts.'" Zaid went out to the Messenger of God and said, "O Messenger of God, I learned that you came to my house. Did you come in? O Messenger of God, my father and mother are your ransom. Perhaps you liked Zainab. I can leave her." The Messenger of God said, "Keep your wife."^[1]^[2]^[3]

^ Landau-Tasseron/Tabari pp. 180-181.
^ Bewley/Saad, pp. 72-73.
^ Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Rusul wa'l-Muluk vol. 8. Translated by Fishbein, M. (1997). The Victory of Islam, pp. 1-3. Albany: State University of New York Press. For an alternative tradition telling the same story, see Fishbein/Tabari p. 4.

SpyButeo (talk) 15:17, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edited the passage per Source. SpyButeo (talk) 16:06, 31 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph cited above is a good representation of what is contained in the three sources (which all refer to one Arabic original). There is a problem, however, that the various English translations are still under copyright.Petra MacDonald (talk) 00:32, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Divorce from Zaynab - Disclaimer

I have reverted the addition of a disclaimer on this article because this is not Wikipedia practise. By using this website, automatic agreement to the following disclaimers are acknowledged: WP:DISCLAIMER. ‘Additional disclaimers in encyclopedia articles should generally be removed, and disclaimer templates should be removed and deleted’. See WP:NDA. As this is policy, there is not much leeway unfortunately.

AussieWikiDan (talk) 16:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox description

@Wakelogger: The issue you mentioned is already explained in the article and in the lead, where "adopted son" is used and explained. The infobox (which is a shorter summary) follows that wording. The wording "former adopted son" is bizarre when speaking of a historical person whose life as a whole is the subject of the article. If he was adopted at some point, then by definition the term "adopted son" is applicable, and if this is part of his historical relevance, then it's worth mentioning in the infobox. It's the article's job to explain the details. But if other editors feel differently, I'll happily defer to them.
Another, less confusing wording or a very short clarifying note might also be appropriate; e.g. if the year of the revelation is known, then add something like "before [year]" in parenthesis (similar to how years are provided for other positions/roles in the infobox). If the entire point is too confusing either way, then removing this statement from the infobox altogether might be reasonable. Again, hearing from other editors would be best. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS: As an example of how a reliable scholarly source would summarize the topic, see "Zayd b. Ḥārit̲h̲a" in the Encyclopedia of Islam ([1]), where the wording "adoptive son of the Prophet Muḥammad" is also used in the opening line. R Prazeres (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The wording “former adoptive son” describes his last position before he died. Firstly let’s look at this.

“Zayd then became her and Muhammad’s adopted son. This father-son status was later annulled after Muhammad married Zayd’s ex-wife, Zaynab bint Jahsh.”

this words it as if it’s like Zayd was still Muhammad’s adoptive son during and after the marriage. Yes it is explained later in the article but average person with some prejudice and/or ignorance won’t scroll down. We know that Surah Al-Ahzab was revealed in fifth year of the Hijra, which correlates to about 626-627. The time of Al-Ahzab’s revelation. If we go ahead and accept that Zayd divorced Zaynab in December 626, this tells us, abruptly, before the marriage between Muhammad and Zaynab took place Zayd’s adoptive status was annulled. Muhammad never acted about anything before the revelation happened and the order was given. Quran 33:4 revealing adoptive sons are not equal to real sons. And Quran 33:5 revealing that the now not adopted sons should be called by their old names instead of their adoptive parents’ names. So Zayd wasn’t his adoptive son during and after the marriage.

This wording doesn’t really make sense in the light of all this given and should be changed. I may add “before Quran 33:4 and Quran 33:5 was announced.” Or same meaning with other wording, if seems too out of place. Wakelogger (talk) 04:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Landau-Tasseron/Tabari pp. 180-181.

[2] Bewley/Saad, pp. 72-73.

[3] Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Rusul wa'l-Muluk vol. 8. Translated by Fishbein, M. (1997). The Victory of Islam, pp. 1-3. Albany: State University of New York Press. For an alternative tradition telling the same story, see Fishbein/Tabari p. 4.

[1]

[2]

[3]