Talk:Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn

His Origins

Yusuf Al Kownayn, was of native background according to valid sources. If alternative theories are present, please use the talk page.

As it states in the multiple sources I will list below. Yusuf al Kownayn was a Somali man and the originator of the Walashama Dynasty.

1.Nehemia Levtzion; Randall Pouwels (Mar 31, 2000). The History of Islam in Africa. Ohio University Press. p. 242. "Aw Barkhadle, is the founder and ancestor of the Walashma dynasty"

2.Somalia; Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972). The Writing of the Somali Language: A Great Landmark in Our Revolutionary History. Ministry of Information and National Guidance. p. 10. "Aw Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa."

3. Lewis, I. M (1998). Saints and Somalis: Popular Islam in a Clan-based Society. The Red Sea Press. p. 89. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni (talk • contribs) 01:46, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

First of all please do not remove cited text, continue the discussion in the talk page instead of edit warring; you have been blocked previously for similar behaviour.

We have gone over all of this previously. Of the three sources you've listed, only no.2 a revolutionary-government commissioned pamphlet published by the Ministry of 'Information and Guidance' with no author attribution, nor any citations, states he was native. The only description of his background found in your first source is on p.243 where he is described as a Sharif (thus an Arab). Your third source explicitly also describes him as a Sharif in the heading of the section on the same page you are citing which is titled: The 'Blessed' Saint', Sharif Yuusuf Barkhadle of the Worlds. The text goes on to describe him almost exclusively as Sharif Yusuf, and detail his mission to the land of barbari on p.91 and how he was "sent there to guide those people in the right path and to rectify their sins", as well as including his complete Arab genealogy on the same page to Ali. The same author I. M. Lewis states in a different publication "[He] came to Somaliland from Arabia and began to teach Islam and Arabic" (p.264, A Pastoral Democracy). I think the literature is clear on this point.

Are there other mentions in the sources you are citing above describing him as Somali that I missed?

Please continue the discussion on the talk page instead of edit warring, your removal of cited content is also an issue here (e.g. removal of Sharif note, citation of Dr. Cerulli) as well as unsourced additions that you've reinstated (e.g. Zeila birth).--Kzl55 (talk) 13:10, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Please also note your addition of the Maldives sections in this article [2] seems to be inaccurate, as Abu Barakat Al Barbari the Sheikh noted for introducing Islam to the Maldives is of North African heritage: "the people were Sunni Muslims of the Maliki school — an indication of the school of law followed by Abu Barakat al Barbari, the Maghribi Arab who first converted the islands to Islam.", this quote is from The Maldives: Kingdom of a Thousand Isles p.72, the same source also states: The conversion is ascribed by Ibn Battuta to a wandering Maghribi shaykh, Abu Barakat al-Barbari.." [3]. Other sources include "This was being practised when Abu Barakaath Yoosuf Al-Barbari, a Moroccan trader and missionary, visited the Maldives. " [4], as well as "On 10 September 1994, Aafathis, the Maldivian morning daily, announced that it was 867 years to the day since the Maldives had been converted1 to Islam by the Arab saint Abu al- Barakat al-Barbari." [5]. Others describe the man as Al Tabrizi and claim Al Barbari was a misinterpretation of the Arabic. The actual image of the plaque depicting the name of apostle you've added to the article is described in the image's page as Yusuf Tabrisi's plaque [6], at any rate he is not the same person as the subject of this article Shaykh Yusuf Al Kowneyn. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:15, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Aw Barkhadle

Aqooni If you go to page 61 and read the last paragraph[7], it clearly states that "Aber Khudle" (Aw Barkhadle) the venerated saint comes from the Gerhajis branch of the Isaakh (Isaaq).GeelJire (talk) 07:48, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Geeljire The source you provided was interesting, but it is widely known (and there are plenty of sources indicating) that Shaykh Isaaq and Yusuf Al Kownayn were contemporaries. The book Islamic Literature of Somalia, written by B. W. Andrzejewski, which you can read here https://books.google.ca/books?id=TXowAAAAYAAJ indicate that Shaykh Isaaq and Yusuf Al Kownayn were alive during the same time period. Also within I.M Lewis's book "Saints and Somalis: Popular Islam in a Clan-based Society" on page 94 https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1569021031, it states that Shaykh Al Kownayn and Shaykh Isaaq met. Therefore, when the two shaykhs are alive at the same time how could Al Kownayn be a descendant of the Garhajis sub group of Shaykh Isaaq? It's impossible.Aqooni (talk) 03:53, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Aqooni, As i wrote in my edit it is "Another tradition". One definition of "tradition" is : the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation.

There is no truth claim, its not being represented as a fact, but merely another tradition. And i'm well aware of the inconsistencies in regards to Sheikh Isaaq. But isn't that a common feature of Somali history?. Some sources say Yusuf Al kowneyn was Arab and some say he was a native African. The Garhajis lineage is no different, just one among many stories. Note that Cruttenden was writing this in the 1850's, so its not a recent view but is probably more than 2 centuries old. I think it deserves a mention as much as the Walashama connection.GeelJire (talk) 05:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

GeelJire, the source you have provided is merely one mentioned,that has no basis in Somali genealogical history, and contradicts more valid source. Also this is the notion of one colonial writer. No other similar theories exist. If we were to include this, it would be no problem to also include other genealogical traditions for other personalities, such as Shaykh Isaaq himself on his page, including the more substantive genealogical theories that indicate he was a descendant of Dir Samaale (which we have plenty of sources of). By you including this weak source indicating Yusuf Al Kownayn was a descendant of Garhajis ( Which is genealogically impossible, on all fronts, and can be proven), it opens up a possibility of other opinions on other similar figures. A Pandora's box if you will. Aqooni (talk) 20:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Aqooni,

There's no Wikipedia policy that says information can't be from one source. The threshold for inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability and the source i provided is indeed verifiable.

WP:vnt Verifiability: In Wikipedia's sense, material is verifiable if it can be directly supported by at least one reliable published source. Verifiability is not determined by whether the material has already been supplied with an inline citation.

Cruttenden interviewed the Somali locals, this is not his theory as it was his first travel in the Somali country. Everything he mentions in his writings pertaining to Somali clans was relayed to him by local Somalis.

Also, i think i have given due weight WP:RSUW, as it is only mentioned once in the beginning of the article unlike the Walashama, which i think is fair.

Somali clans and historical Somali individuals all have varying genealogical traditions. On the Dir clan article it is mentioned that Dirs are the oldest Somali clan that retained their Cushitic culture, and at the same time mentions the Samaale Arabian genealogy, which is highly contradictory. If two contrasting traditions can be mentioned in the same article, like the Dir. I don't know why it can't be in regards to Aw barkhadle. And i have to remind you again, it is another tradition and clearly states that in the article, tradition does not equal fact, i think you're conflating the two terms.

The tradition that says aw barkhadle was Garhajis is well known among people from Somaliland, i myself have been aware of this fact growing up. And if you're familiar with geography and clan settlements, you'll notice that the tomb of aw barkhadle is in Garhajis territory on the outskirts of Hargeisa. The fact that Oral history today coincides with Cruttendens writing almost 2 centuries ago is a testament to the fact that is a long standing genealogical tradition. In my opinion it deserves mention. GeelJire (talk) 02:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Yusuf is regarded as Arab

Aqoni, u deleted the Arab cites for native when Somali is not in the area until recently, the berbers were there before Somalis. It should say beber or removed. Magherbin (talk) 03:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Magherbin, you are terrible mistaken in a lot of details. In many authentic sources this Shaykh is described as a Native Somali, and also being the same figure that proselytized to Sri Lanka and the Maldives. Many sources describing him as arab are Colonial sources known for having anti African biases and historical inaccuracies and physical impossibilities within its texts, as shown above with the theory " Yusuf Al Kownayn was a descendant of his contemporary, Shaykh Isaaq."I will provide sources here to show his African and Somali identity.

Magherbin, you mentioned that the source Wasaaradda Warfaafinta iyo Hanuuninta Dadweynaha (1972) , in your erroneous removal seen here https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Yusuf_bin_Ahmad_al-Kawneyn&diff=847415274&oldid=847408042 (That I corrected today) you wrote in refernce to the text you removed, "native does not indicate anything other then he was a berber" which is vastly incorrect.Within that source native means, Native of Somalia, as per the paragraph quoted in the citation itself. You removed that valid source for no reason.

Another to point to add, Stephanie Honchel mentions in her writings "Sufis, Sea Monsters, and Miraculous Circumcisions: Comparative Conversion Narratives and Popular Memories of Islamization", that Ibn Batuta was biased in his narration of refelcting Yusuf Al Kownayn in the Maldives as a fellow Moroccan, because of his Moroccan heritage, and that the theory of him being East African was well known at the time.

Also, Musa Galaal, a prolific scholar within his writings "Relations historiques à travers l'océan Indien", mentions that Yusuf Al Kownayn and Shaykh Barkat Al Barbary are one in the same, and that Shaykh Kownayn after completing his conversion of the residents of Dogor (now known as Aw Barkhadle), went to south east Asia and converted those populations into Islam, and was called by the residents there "Barakath Al-Barbari" .

To Summerize, the fact that he is known as a Somali Scholar who converted South East Asian populations into Islam isn't something I'm making up, it is well known and discussed in many books and other pieces of literature. Please keep your discussion here, before making any more erroneous edits. Aqooni (talk) 03:43, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

My argument is, native of Somalia does not indicate, his Somaliness, the writings here are merely discussing the geographical residence which in today terms would be Somalia. Many studies have shown Somalis were not in the area until the 15th & 16th century. The 7 Berber tribes are mentioned by Ibn Batuta clearly and Somali is not mentioned anywhere. It is the local tradition that mentions Yusuf as Arab not colonialists. He was Yusuf Al-Kawneyn not Al-Sumalin. Magherbin (talk) 03:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Magherbin , native of Somalia means exactly that, A Somali native. Please provide a source of Ibn Batuta showing that 7 Berber tribes from North Africa resisded in Somalia or in the Maldives? I am not sure what you are claiming in that sentence (please clarify?). Also Yusuf Al Kownayn has many nick names, one including "Yusuf Al Barbary", Barbary means a resident or native of Somalia as well,, usually used by Non Somalis, as shown in these sources . You can read more about how Somalis were called Barbara by outsiders here Barbara_(region). You however are not providing any sources but rather your opnion. The fact is there ample proof of Shaykh Kownayn of being of Somali/African descent. Aqooni (talk) 04:09, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Thats hilarious when you said its all my opinion, I think everyone knows you deleted my sources, instead of ignoring my statements why not comment on them. 1. Somalis are new to northern Somalia 2. Berber does not equal Somali, therefore if native is left alone its fine but Somali can not be included because there's no proof, no historical document said this. Why do I need to show you proof that berber tribes in north africa resided anywhere? Berber in Somalia does not equal Somali. Read Ibn Batuta and find Somali in it-[8]. Magherbin (talk) 04:37, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Magherbin, Your opinion of Somali people "being new to Northern Somalia" is completely fictious and false, and you have provided 0 sources showing that. You also mentioned "Berber does not equal Somali" As proven through these sources I posted already, Berber/Berbery/Barbary can mean Somali and has in many instances. . Berber has been used by non Somalis to designed a person from coming from the region of Somalia, please see Barbara_(region) for further reading. Also Ibn Batuta was well aware of the East African theory of Yusuf Al Kownayn's conversion of the Maldives, as shown here. ( Which I posted earlier) Stephanie Honchel mentions in her writings "Sufis, Sea Monsters, and Miraculous Circumcisions: Comparative Conversion Narratives and Popular Memories of Islamization", that Ibn Batuta was biased in his narration of refelcting Yusuf Al Kownayn in the Maldives as a fellow Moroccan, because of his Moroccan heritage, and that the theory of him being East African was well known at the time.. At this point in time, it seems you are ignoring the sources I posted already to spew your opinion. I have no Idea why you want a prolific Somali historical figure to be Morrocan,there is nothing within Somali history ever stating Yusuf Al Kownayn came from Morrocoo. That's comptelty fictious. Aqooni (talk) 05:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I have read it in the library that Somali are new to this area, if its very important I would go get the book now but it is not the central point of the edit nor is this page the Somalia history dispute. I was thinking that you ignored it because you agree with my conclusion/statement but now you are responding with its false. I dont disagree with Barber might be Somali but we are rolling dice blindly. The page barbara you directed me to says that berbers are ancestor to Somali, this we already know since Somali are cushitic and the berber were also cushite. Now tell me how berbers are ancestor to Somalis equals berbers are Somalis? Stephanie also is careful to direct to east african and not Somali because even she knows Somali are new to the area. I have never said he is Morrocan, I just want removal of Somali. Please remove it. Magherbin (talk) 05:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Magherbin, your statement "I have read it in the library that Somali are new to this area" Is not a citable source. Please provide a citable source for your claim "Somalis are new to the Horn of Africa". Also within the page I directed you to Barbara_(region), no where does it state Morrocans are the ancestors of Somalis. Again please provide a source showing that. At any rate, my sources still stand that Yusuf Al Kownayn was known by many scholars as to be a native Somali and also known for spreading Islam to parts of South East Asia. He was never known as "Morrocan" in any peice of Somali traditional history. Please come with sources to show your opinions.Aqooni (talk) 05:25, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not citing about Somali migration, this page is about the berber saint Yusuf, it has nothing to do with Somali movement throughout African continent. Now lets us comee to compromise, you leave the page blank with no ethnicity listed and we can introduce the fact that Somali people view this berber as a saint. If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century. Magherbin (talk) 05:30, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

References

RfC on the ethnicity of Yusuf al-Kawneyn

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There's a dispute on the background of Yusuf, should it be Arab, Somali, or Neither? Magherbin (talk) 09:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

• Neither or Arab- Based on these source Magherbin (talk) 09:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
• He is regarded as Somali by these sources,

Magherbin previously, in our talks above, you tried to regard this figure as Berber which is to my knowledge, a non arab ethnic group residing in North Africa. Now you want to portray this figure as Arab? Quite confusing. Aqooni (talk) 00:39, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

As I explained native doesnt indcate Somali, when Somalis were not traditionally in the area. I made the edit which said the individual was Arab and you deleted it [9] hence no confusion. Europeans are majority in the United states today, it doesnt mean native american saints were Europeean. Somali locals refer to him as non Somali therefore I dont see your argument here, we cant change tradition. There's a chance he was Berber from North Africa because sources say this for example [10] due to his name al barbari, the Somali argument is very weak though. If you want it to say berber native, I have no objections because there's credible sources including the ones you provided. Magherbin (talk) 01:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Native within the sources I posted clearly means Somali. There is absulotely no proof to your statement that Somalis were not native to the Horn of Africa in the 12th century when this Somali historical figure resided. Please provided sources. You are merely grasping at straws. Also as I proved in our previous discussion, Berber/Barbari was another word for a resident of Somalia in the past, please see Barbara_(region) Aqooni (talk) 02:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually Berber is a wide terminology, one of the sources provided (ref#4) claims Yusuf is also venerated in Harar an Eastern Barbar town [11] Hadiya/harala seem to be an old berber tribe that the Somali studies published source claims they lived in Hargeisa region which is where Yusuf is buried. [12] You added this [13] recently to Yibir. The Harla page claims Harla community's language, called af Harlaad, which resembled the Somali languages spoken by the Yibir and Madhiban low-caste groups. This is enough proof other berbers existed in the area but no longer exist today, whats more confusing is the relation of Issaq who is considered also to be an immigrant from Arabia. These Arab pioneers are saints just that not creators of berber tribes thus Yusuf converted the pagan Mohammed Hanif. Magherbin (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Native simply means born in a place - it tells one nothing about the ethnicity or 'nationality' of a person. Pincrete (talk) 09:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

• Neither The concept of "Somali" as a nationality in the 12th century is disputable, and he fact that he understood and spoke Arabic is insufficient to make a person ethnically "Arab" either. What we do know was that he was Islamic, in terms of religion, and that is about all. Collect (talk) 12:52, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
• Somalia (Summoned by bot) because that is where he is from, what modern history calls Somalia. ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
• Neither Changing after reading through other's responses and talking it over IRL with friends. I slightly disagree with Herodotus in point but get the gist, Caesar was Latin or Italic more than Italian. ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 19:05, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The individual lived in modern day Somalia yes, but the dispute is over his ethnicity. Do you agree with collect's response that we should leave it with no ethnicity, and add in parenthesis that he lived in Zeila (modern Somalia)? Magherbin (talk) 21:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

At the moment, no, btu I will continue to look into it, and may change my mind. ^Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 22:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

• Neither "Somali" as a nationality or identity in the 12th century is disputable and anachronistic. Was Julius Caeser an Italian? Herodotus a Turk?Pincrete (talk) 22:22, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Respectfully, while I follow your reasoning, that's not an editorial decision that policy allows us to make on the behalf of Wikipedia's voice (WP:OR). If a significant number of WP:reliable sources describe him as Somali, we will need to present that perspective, though we may (and should in this instance) make it clear with attribution that there are complexities involved with the use of this label (same for Arab, if there is WP:WEIGHT support there as well). We'd call Julius Caesar an Italian if a significant enough number of sources did so. Indeed, such sources do exist (often enthnocentric pro-nationalist sources) but thankfully the scholarship on Caesar is so substantial that we can dismiss such notions as WP:FRINGE via the weight analysis and not mention them at all.

Here, we are not so conveniently aided by the scholarship, and though I have not studied the sources in detail, I feel like what I have seen here suggests that it would not be a proper weight reading to dismiss either Arab or Somali out of hand. I do think there should be a very nuanced approach to how these ethnicity issues are presented though. Like you, I would not want to ignore the obvious anachronism/conflict of terms entirely. I simply prefer sharing some elements of the discussion we are having right here in explicit terms with the reader, so they can arrive at their own conclusions (most I presume will think in a similar vein as to that argument expressed in your comment, as do I). Snow ^{let's rap} 00:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

No objection to rendering the claims, and giving those historical context in the manner you suggest below, to the extent that they are sourced - that is informative. The question posed was which 'nationality/ethnicity' should be rendered in WP:VOICE. The answer to that remains neither unless the sources are absolutely clear. Pincrete (talk) 10:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

• Make the presence of both descriptors known to the reader in a neutral fashion: Policy and community consensus are abundantly clear on this question: where there is disagreement among WP:reliable sources as to how to define a topic and both interpretations feature significant WP:WEIGHT in said sources, we present the variations, ideally in a well-attributed fashion, with as much context as we can reasonably work into the prose to allow the reader to be aware of both descriptions and come to their own conclusions free of any WP:Original research/WP:POV theorizing on our part (either in the content or here) as to which "makes more sense". Snow ^{let's rap} 00:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Excellent point perhaps ethnicity section is warranted. Magherbin (talk) 23:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I think a full section may be excessive--I can't say for sure because I am not familiar enough with the full span of sourcing and the explicitness of the debate, but it is a rare case where a biographical article requires a full section regarding the debate around ethnicity. I suspect a few well-crafted sentences or a paragraph at most will probably be sufficient. But I will provide a more refined assessment of that issue as soon as I can find the time. Snow ^{let's rap} 01:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) I added "society, sports, and culture" because this is a societal/cultural issue. I don't mean to convey that the topic is sports-related.

Of course, the debate might be winding down, anyways.  I dream of horses  If you reply here, please ping me by adding {{U|I dream of horses}} to your message  (talk to me) (My edits) @ 04:51, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

He is somali

Somalis in the medieval times were referred as Bilad Al-Berber or black Berbers by the Arabs due to the same phenotype they had with Berbers of north Africans but darker skin complexion.

Here are the sources

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tw0Q0tg0QLoC&pg=PA600&dq=Bilad+al-Barbar+(Land+of+the+Berbers).&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQpKTy-9TfAhXlXhUIHcMlA_0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Bilad%20al-Barbar%20(Land%20of%20the%20Berbers).&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA137&dq=somalis+black+berbers&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-3tKl-9TfAhWXSRUIHXXaCJUQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=somalis%20black%20berbers&f=false

Also, Yusuf Al-Kowneyn was born in Zeila and his lineage has been confirmed. I've provided the souces. He's no doubt a Somali. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s (talk • contribs) 20:36, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

User:Datch71s This was already discussed just above you, there's sources that says he emigrated from arabia. Such as the following [14] We can create an ethnicity section to include all the hypothesis of Arab, Native, Somali, Berber etc as recommended by the closing admin. Black Berber is not Somali, the source does not indicate this, your approach indicates WP:SYNTH Magherbin (talk) 15:18, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

How did he immigrate from Araba when he was born in Zeila? If he’s not Somali then explain why he found the Wadaad script which is a the traditional Somali adaptation of written Arabic? Doesn’t sound like an Arab to me.

Sheikh Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn (colloquially referred to as Aw Barkhadle or the "Blessed Father"), a man described as "the most outstanding saint in northern Somalia."

Of Somali descent, he sought to advance the teaching of the Qur'an. Al-Kawneyn devised a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic vowels, which enabled his pupils to read and write in Arabic.

According to Sheikh Abi-Bakr Al Alawi, a Harari historian, states in his book that Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn was of native and local Dir (clan) extraction.

By the way, Dir is a native Somali clan that dominate Zeila — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s (talk • contribs) 15:53, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

It was discussed above that various Berbers existed in Somalia. Are you willing to compromise by including all viewpoints in the article? We can not definitely say he is of any ethnic group per the consensus above. This accounts speaks of Yusuf the Magheribin converting to Islam those who lived on the islands of Asia [15] Magherbin (talk) 16:24, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Arab interest in Maldives also was reflected in the residence there in the 1340s of Ibn Battutah. The well-known North African traveler wrote how a Moroccan, one Abu Barakat the Berber, was believed to have been responsible for spreading Islam in the islands, reportedly convincing the local king after having subdued Ranna Maari, a demon coming from the sea. Even though this report has been contested in later sources, it does explain some crucial aspects of Maldivian culture. For instance, historically Arabic has been the prime language of administration there, instead of the Persian and Urdu languages used in the nearby Muslim states. Another link to North Africa was the Maliki school of jurisprudence, used throughout most of North Africa, which was the official one in the Maldives until the 17th century.

However, most scholars have suggested the possibility of Ibn Battuta misreading Maldive texts, and have posited another scenario where Ibn Battuta recorded both traditions from the local Maldives suggesting Abu Barakat natve from Morroco and Yusuf Al-Kawneyn native from Somalia in Zeila. This scenario would also help explain the usage of the Arabic language and the predominance of the Maliki school on the islands.

Not only these sources are accepted by most scholars but you're conflating with two Sheikhs and traditions. Morrocans had their own Sheikh called Abu Baraka who apparently converted the Maldives into Islam and Somalis have their own Sheikh called Yusuf Al-Kawneyn. If you want to make a page about Abu Baraka, go ahead but your vandalism on this page will not be tolerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Datch71s (talk • contribs) 16:44, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Magherbin, you have not proven that the Berber ethnic group of North Africa resides anywhere in Somalia. Provide a source. This source mentions Yusuf Al Kownayn as an ancient Somali shaykh,https://books.google.ca/books?id=uqw0DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&dq=Somali+Sheikh+Yusuf+al-kowneyn+barkadle&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp-_Dy7dnfAhUJHjQIHQ6dBxoQ6AEIKDAA. This source as well mentions Yusuf Al Kownayn as a Somali Shaykh, https://archive.org/stream/ERIC_ED036423#page/n153/mode/2up/search/barkhadleAlso. To my knowledge, the Berbers you are claiming, they are a Non Arab ethnic group, so why are you pushing an Arab origin for a Somali Shaykh by using the non Arab Berber ethnic group? What does that have to do with Yusuf Al kownayn? Your posts come off as trolly. Aqooni (talk) 19:11, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Lets create Ethnicity section because thats what the closing Admin had suggested. Some say he is Morroco some say Tunisia others Somali. I was going to do it but im abit busy atm. Magherbin (talk) 14:18, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Arabian origin story explained

Magherbin I added a source that explains Arabian origin stories pertaining to Somali saints. This is not my own personal analysis it is what the text itself says.[16] And it gives much needed context behind it, so does the analysis of Aw Barkhadle site being pre-islamic burial site linked to syncronetic religious traditions explained by Sade Mire. Divine Fertility: The Continuity in Transformation of an Ideology of Sacred These are all sourced, there is no reason for you to take it out. And even Sade Mire talks about it in here book but you neglect to add that Somali myth of origin , it's misleading to add the part where she mentions the oral story even tho she says its a myth later on Somali origins

Three different academic sources state that he is a native Somali and they do so by evaluating the historical evidence left behind.

It's a balanced POV , which includeds the point of view of oral story, the POV of scholars on mythic arabian origins to saintly ancestors (Which includes Yusuf) , the point of view of Sade Mire who presented evidence on the Aw-Barkhadle site, and the point of view of most scholars today that believe he is native. Ragnimo (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The analyss regarding Somali saints belongs on the Somali saints article not here, the invention of Somalia book makes no mention of Yusuf al-Kawneyn hence cant be used here to further a point. Sada Mire calls Somali Saint origin a myth not necessarily Yusuf al-Kawneyns origins, and yes I agree with her conclusion that Somali identity doesnt originate from foreign saints from Arabia. Many sources state he came from Arabia as well hence your three sources stating he was Somali is obviously disputed just refer to the RFC above in the talk page. Saints are not a myth, the myth is Somali ethnic group originating from saints, from my understanding saints in east africa are called "Aw" which means father, its similar to useage of the term applied on catholic preists, they're not literally fathers of the people just spiritually. The RFC concluded that an ethnicity section may be warranted hence thats the approach to go by. Magherbin (talk) 00:25, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

The analysis in the Invention of Somalia itself regards Somali saints/ancestors in general. That analysis however is refrenced by Sade Mire herself in the book, she connects it to Saint Awbarkhadle in the title Somali origin Myth and Saint Aw-Barkhadle and says Aw-Barkhadle is key in terms of this myth. And she literally goes on to explain the same mythical story around it. The man on the Tree which Aw-Barkhadle is included in.

If you agree that Somalis do not originate from Arabia, whats stops you from Agreeing that Aw-Barkhadle doesn't? It sounds to me that you're being intellectually dishonest. You at first tried to suggest he was berber but since no scholars backs that . you are now trying exploit origin myth stories to push the idea that he is Arab, when there is zero authencity behind it. As the source shows.

Aw means ancestor but has come to mean saint. It a Somali word short for Awoowe(Grandfather). It's a pre-islamic remnant of ancestor worship. Even Wadaad which has become to be known as an islamic sheikh was a pre-islamic idol according to Sade Mire she says so on page 101 . How do you refrence a book you don't even read? but nitpick at?

The saints themselves coming from Arabia is the myth , they were local saints and then later venerated as such. She talks about in the book how indigenous clan founders and ancestors ease into becoming Islamic saints and it ties to Waaq religious cultural synchronism. And so does this source also explain it Tribal founders transfigurated into Islamic saints and sheikhs Ragnimo (talk) 00:54, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ragnimo I would like to add a few things. I can't believe you had to explain to him the book was talking about Somali saints and their mythical origins. It was very dull from him. I don't know how he connects Bilad Al-Berber to North Africans since historically Arabs always referred to the Somali peninsula as Berber. See here: [17] No scholar ever claimed Aw Barkhaadle to be of North African origin so if this is another petty way of arguing he shouldn't bother.

Not only many scholars consider him a Somali saint but we're forgetting the elephant in the room. He also laid the foundation of the Wadaad script which is the Somali language written in the Arabic script. Surely that proves the scholars claim that he was indeed Somali.

Al-Kawneyn devised a Somali nomenclature for the Arabic vowels, which enabled his pupils to read and write in Arabic. - Laitin, p.85 Ayaltimo (talk) 02:18, 24 November 2020‎ (UTC)

It goes without saying he is included Diwan-Al-awliya, (Saints of Somali Origin) which includes Saints like Sheikh Hussein (saint) Awbube and Al-Zaylaʽi. But there is no way a foreigner who just arrived from Arabia could have the Somali language profiency enough to create a Arab script for it and teach it. This among many reasons , including what i sourced above is why he is considered a native.

Furthermore i have explained to him berber refers to Somalis and not Moroccans. But i suspect he actually knows and is deliberately being dishonest or clueless about it but to qoute another source Cambridge History of Africa page 135.

and this:

The traditional view that the Galla preceded the Somali in the Horn is no longer valid. It is rather the Somali who are referred to in the accounts of early Arab geographers. In fact, there was a basic continuity in the use of the term Berber since the first century of the Christian era to describe the land and the people of the Horn. The Periplus, Claudius Ptolemy, and Cosmas Indicopleustes employed it in much the same way as the Arab geographers did after the ninth century. There seems to be no doubt that the Arab geographers had particularly the Somali in mind when they spoke of the 'Black Berbers' of the Horn; and the earlier use of the term by Greek writers may very well indicate a more ancient occupancy of the Horn by the same stock of people.

The contacts between the Near and the Middle East on the one hand, and the African side of the Gulf of Aden on the other, were very old and regular; and the earliest advent of Islam in these regions must have certainly occurred within the first century of the Muslim era. The inhabitants of the Horn at that time seem to have been the ancestors of the present-day Somali. Their most important coastal settlements were Zeila and Berbera on the Gulf of Aden, and Mogadishu, Merca and Brava on the Benadir coast. - Page 135

He also tries to suggest above on the talk page that Somalis consider themselves Arabs: If it matters, the Somali people are in Arab league, they considered themselves arabs until the turn of the century - Magherbrin

Which is not true and multiple sources can be cited that refutes it- They never considered themselves Arabs but considered temselves Somali and culturally/ethnically distinct.

20th century scholar J. Spencer Trimingham noted -

Somalis are extremely proud of being Somali and though they may delight in the fiction that they are descendants of the prophet or his companions and have constructed elaborate genealogies, they do not consider themselves arabs. Somalis attach little political significance to the their supposed arab descent and go out of their way to distinguish themselves cultureally from Arabs.

Somalis don't consider themselves Arabs so much that they invented a Somali scripts to avoid adopting the Arabic one in the early 20th century:

It had been recorded that Cisman while writing letters to his family in Somali with the unsuitable Arabic script, said to himself: You are Somali, you speak Somali, why don't you have Somali letters? He then developed his own script which bore little resemblance either to Arabic or to Latin, and began to teach it

Source: Politics, Language, and Thought: The Somali Experience by David D Laitin

Also being in Arab League had nothing to do with them considering themselves Arab, it was a move by the PM made in 1972 to find economic and political support for the Ogaden War because they had relgious and economic ties to the Arab world. It wasn't a cultural move.

Also there can be no doubt that Yusuf is who is mentioned as the convertor of Maldives and Sri Lanka. Many sources substantiate that he was East African which was well known at the time, the name follows with Yusuf, with Barbari referring to his Ethnic Somali origins. Likewise Somalis having presence in those Islands and adjacent region is noted by Ibn Battuta as well with the Mogadishu governor Abd_al-Aziz_of_Mogadishu . No suprise.

Hopefully this clarifies things Ragnimo (talk) 08:40, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Read WP:UNCIVIL and do not flood the talk page with unrelated references to further a point. Please read WP:SNYTH regarding the content introduced in the origins section which you renamed ethnicity. There's an abundance of references (see above) that mention he was North African/Arab, hence we cant ignore them to push a one sided POV. Magherbin (talk) 03:20, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The North African claim roots came from Ibn Battuta who mistakenly took the Berber Somali with North African Berber. Scholars have already looked into those accounts and suggest Ibn Battuta was misreading Maldive texts, and having a bias towards the North African, Maghrebi narrative of this Shaykh, instead of the East African origins account that was known as well at the time. I hope that clears it here. Ayaltimo (talk) 03:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Magherbin First and foremost it's not unrelated, those refrences are brought forward do clarify against what you have stated on the Yusuf Talk page. Here: Talk:Yusuf_bin_Ahmad_al-Kawneyn#Yusuf_is_regarded_as_Arab. It's very specific to that.

We can assume good faith and be civil but it's problematic if your are being uncooperative, edit warring, reverting without consensus or editing under a persistent false belief which you can neither substaniate or defend Ragnimo (talk) 03:45, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

You two are the ones that should be seeking consensus since you're opposing a long list of neutral editors that participated in the RFC. There's nothing wrong with including the fact that a few historians view him as East Africa however you're including Somali in place of native or East African, this is called WP:SNYTH. The subjects ethnicity is disputed all together. An article with an ethnicity section can not have the introduction/infobox decide for the readers that the subject belonged to a specific ethnic group, it defeats the point of an ethnicity section. This is a book published in 2019 calling him a Moroccan. [18]. Stephanies accusation of bias by Ibn Batuta can be included as well. Magherbin (talk) 04:29, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Like I said again your sources regarding his identity being Arab have been accepted but it's no one's fault there are sources that discredit your sources as mythical. You're just being disruptive and can't accept source criticism on the ethnicity section. Houssain Kettani book's is based on Ibn Battuta's misreading of Maldive texts and that has been criticized by scholars so if you want to add it go ahead but don't remove sources that criticize it. Thank you. Ayaltimo (talk) 04:44, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Magherbin Point to me where there is clear refrence of dispute? There was no sources included stating he is Arab persay. There is one source you added that said that there is an oral local tradition that said he arrived from Arabia and this was included. I didn't remove it. Also in the same source you added this oral story was regarded as a myth with an explanation given to it but you left that out and i added it. Read the the several pages starting from Somali Origin myth and Saint Aw Barkhadle and what Sade Mire refrences from Mansur Etal and several other authors in that same. So there is no synthesis. It's the same thing being stated about it being a myth and a reflection of religious synchronism.

He was added as a Somali and a native. I'M Lewis with refrence to him as a local saint and part of the Somali 'Diwan al-awliya' (Famous Saints of Somali Origin) among other ethnic Somali saints.[19] then other two sources. So i added both he is a native and a Somali.

Also the MAldives/Sri Lanka subject is seperate thing altogether from the subject of his ethnicity. Ayaltimo provided a refrence for that maldives Island Converter being widely known as East African at that time and Ibn Batuuta misreading it. Historians have connected that one Island Sheikh based refrences to his Somali/East African/Barbari ethinicty etc to Yusuf Aw Barkhadle but if it so happens that this converter isn't East African it has nothing to say for what ethnicity Aw Barkhadle is. It doesn't mean Aw Barkhadles ethnicity is disputed. They would be two seperate people from eachother.

I hope this lastly clarifies it Ragnimo (talk) 05:42, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

This dispute existed before I edited the article, regarding I.M Lewis see the previous discussion between these two users [20]. Lewis claims he is a saint for the Somalis not that he is of Somali origin, but even he points out that the saint (Yusuf) arrived from Arabia-"The introduction of Arabic into northern Somaliland is generally attributed to Sheikh Yuusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn (or Aw Barkhadle, as he is popularly known) of ashrdf descent, said to have come to Somaliland as a proselytizer of Islam in the thirteen" see p.135 [21] [22] [23] hence there's no reason to plaster the claim he was definitely Somali in the article. We can include he is considered a saint for Somalis but note he arrived from Arabia as is the tradition. There should be a note on the Morroco claim and Stephanies refutation of the claim in favor of Yusuf being East African. Saints in East Africa are not usually locals especially famous ones for example Abadir. I should point out some sources literally call him al Baghdadi referring to the Iraqi capital and Barton says the following: "Somali tradition places the advent of Darod's father Jiberti bin Ismail, as two hundred years after the Megira. from then onwards the families become less pagan, and in 1260 it is said that Said Yusuf El Bagdadi and Mohamed bin Yunis-bil Siddik, two Arabs came across from Arabia, subdued an infidel magician and settled among the Somalis." [24]. Somali myth of origin which you have addded has little to do with barkhedle and more to do with Somali identity, Sada is disproving Somali clan claims to originating from Arab saints not that Yusuf's Arab identity is a myth. Magherbin (talk) 06:20, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Let me break it down for you systematically. So you can understand and we can put this discussion aside: The prior discussion was made by people that didn't have sufficient knowledge around the subject at hand. There is no dispute on his ethnicty. So i will list everything in orderly manner as i can and carefully explain it.

Aw Barkhadle's arrival from Arabia oral tradition and it being regarded as myth:

In the same source you refrenced in the article Sade Mire not only affirmed it being regarded as myth but in the same sentence she writes about the oral origin tradition of him arriving from Arabia she puts 'allegedly' at the end in qoutation: [25] It is difficult to date exactly when Sharif Yusuf Aw-Barkhadle first arrived, allegedly from Arabia

What does 'allegedly' mean? Something that is claimed to be the case but has no proof to it: [26]

You know why it's also difficult to date? because it's a myth.

So how does this follow? There is an oral tradition that claims he comes from Arabia and that is regarded/discredited as a myth by several different scholars and authors: [27] [28] [29]

What you are trying to make it out to be is that author x claimed he was arab or put some affirmative claim of him arriving from Arabia which she never did. Infact no source you have listed has. In most cases they are just paraphrasing/relaying a local tradition and say nothing about him being an Arab as a fact or the story of his arrival being true.

Sade Mire covers him arriving from Arabia an being related to the Prophet a myth:[30] The Somali Myth of Origin and Saint Aw Barkhadle- The Islamic Somali Myth of Origin, which links the Somali with the Prophet Mohamed's clan, the Quraysh (Lewis, 1994, 1998; Mansur 1995; Mukhtar, 1995) is central to understanding the significance of key practices such as fertility rituals and ancestor veneration. One crucial aspect of Sufi Islam is the genealogical link between followers and religious ancestors(Lewis, 1994, 1998; Triningham, 1952; Huntingford 1955). Lewis argues that the belief in this link faciliated Sufi Islam's success in converting traditional Somalis whose former religion(the Cushitic institution discussed in Chapter five) focuses heavily on ancestor worship(Lewis,1998)..

''A belief exists that the Prophet would have known about the coming of Saint Aw-Barkhadle a few centuries before the actual event. Saint Aw-Barkhadle is confrimed as having 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet (see Apendix..

So do several other sources and as well as she refrences Mansur [31] , which i added to the article and same same among scholars like I'M lewis [32] who is qouted to say they are local and indigenous saints venerated to include relations to the Prophet from Arabia for religious reasons linked to both pagan religion and Islam. In Pre-Islamic times they would link Kings/Rulers/Saints/Ancestors to Waaq but instead now the link them to the Prophet because they are muslim and both of their analysis refers to Somali saintly ancestors in general(This includes Yusuf) but Sade Mire nonetheless regard Aw Barkhadle as key to this myth: It is essential to understand fully the Somali Myth of Origin. The site of Aw-Barkhadle is a key site in terms of this myth

Furthermore just as an additional fact Sade Mire also says Aw Barkhadle being the ancestor to Walashma is based on Somali genealogy;[33] If we, however, look at Somali genealogy, Aw-Barkhadle is linked to the Islamic Walashma Dynasty.. and that genealogy is kept by a Somali group known as muriid if you read on. I am not going to qoute everything because it is lengthy and detailed.

Al-Barbari of Maldives:

I reiterate this has nothing to say for Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity, who is regarded as a native East African/Somali and historians connected Al-Barbari to Yusuf Aw Barkhadle based on the interpretation that Barbari meant East African/Somali - Because Barbari/Berber was an exonym/ethnonym for Somalis see:Barbaria_(East_Africa) and as i already explained to you above [34]. Therefore the Ibn Batutas misreading of the text is related to his intepretation of what Berber/Barbari meant. Because it could have either have been refering to an East African/Somali sheikh/saint or to a Maghreb Berber one. Because both groups were refered to by the name Berber/Barbar in medieval times. But if it so happens to refer to a Maghreb Berber then they are two seperate people. One being Somali/East African (Aw Barkhadle) of Somalia and the other being an unrelated Maghreb Berber of Maldives (Abu Barakat al Barbari ). And vice versa.

The so called disputed Ethnic interpretation here isn't on Aw Barkhadle's ethnicity in particular but on that one interpretation of what that Maldives Al-Barbari's ethnicity is and what his background is. Do you understand now?

If you want add that there is another interpretation to Al-Barbari of Maldives you can do so on the section on Maldives, feel free but you also have to include the add the detail given by Stephanie as well: " ", that Ibn Batuta was biased in his narration of refelcting Abu al-Barakat Yusuf al-Barbari in the Maldives as a fellow Moroccan, because of his Moroccan heritage, and that the theory of him being East African was well known at the time ' - 'Sufis, Sea Monsters, and Miraculous Circumcisions:Comparative Conversion Narratives and Popular Memories of Islamization

What you put down has to assume a neutral POV and in line with the sources. The different theories about the Maldives Sheikh's ethnicity is cited in the Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam

Sources on Aw-Barkhadle being regarded as a native and a Somali as listed:

Aw Barkhadle being regarded as a native: [35][36] The idea of finding a script first occured to a certain Sheikh Yusuf al Kawneny , better known as Aw Barkhadle Barkhadle, he was a native, who lived in about 1,000 years ago and is buried now in a ruined town named after him, Aw Barkhadle, which is a few miles away from Hargeisa.

We can attribute its success (The Walashma dynasty), longevity and influence, to the fact that the founders of the dynasty of Walasma were native of the area - Riraash, Mohamed Abdullahi. Effects of 16th Century Upheavals on the Horn. Djibouti: Service D'Information Djibouti. p. 251. [37]

Aw Barkadle being regarded as a Somali[38]: For a Yibir who was killed in a contest with a Somali sheikh (a religious leader) named Aw Barkhadle.. -Macrocultures, Migration, and Somali Malls: A Social History of Somali Dress and Aesthetics by Heather Marie Akou

[39] In the 1300s, the ancient Somali Sheikh Yusuf al-Kowneyn (Barkadle) adapted Arabic script to the Somali way of reading for learning the Quran..

and Lastly:[40] The potential list of local saints as Lewis rightly points out is, is endless. However some of the most notable would include Shaykhs Yusuf aw Barkhadle, Husayn Bale, Uways b Muhammad and Abd al-Rahman Zayla who today remain among the most important members of the Somali 'Diwan al-awliya'(Saints of Somali origin)

And guess what the ones listed next to him are all local and are confirmed to be somali. Adding that he is Somali and a native is supported by sources. End of discussion.

Regards Ragnimo (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Adhering to WP:YESPOV we should remove Somali from the introduction/infobox (in order to not state it as fact) and something along the lines "tradition states Yusuf arrived from Arabia to the Horn of Africa while other sources state he was native to East Africa or Somali. References to Yusuf al-Kawneyn also describe him as Moroccan" should go in the ethnicity section. This would ensure WP:SNYTH and Wp:NPOV are not violated. Also you're miisinterpreting texts like the blocked sock Aqooni, claiming Yusuf was the founder of the walasma dynasty when texts specifically say he is the ancestor of the founder of Walashma dynasty [41] [42]. Magherbin (talk) 00:57, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

If we are adhering to WP:YESPOV then all the relevant view points are to be added to the article. Also there is no synth all the qoutes outright state it and i took the liberty to qoute some of them for you.

This is how it should go: Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf arrived from Arabia. However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story related to Waaq. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestor in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam . Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins through being related to the prophet.

Some scholars regard him to be a native and a Somali....

Here there is 4 different view points added. The view point that there is a local oral tradition that claims he arrived from Arabica(1). The view point that this is regarded by scholars as an origin myth tied to religious sycronism.(2) The view point that he is regarded as a native (3) and the view point that regard him as a Somali (4). Him being regarded as a Somali is pretty much stated in these two sources [43] [44] and that justifies adding that as his ethnicity.

I never said he was the sole founder of Walashma or anything like that. What i said was that Sade Mire wrote that him being linked to the Walashma is based on Somali geneology but thats a different topic all together. What matters is the source states that both him and walashma are considered native to the area.

The theories around Moroccan and Persian is not about Yusuf Al Kowneyn but about Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives. There is no refrences to Yusuf Al Kowneyn being Morrocan or anything like that. It should go on the Maldives section like i explained. I would propose a sentence under that goes like

However the the theory of Abu Bakarat Al-barbari of Maldives being Yusuf Al-Kowneyn is disputed by some scholars who interpret him instead to be Morrocan or Persian (See: Islam_in_the_Maldives#Introduction_of_Islam)

It's short and brief and redirects people instead of swamping the article. Because the full discussion about what the ethnicity Abu Bakarat Al Barbari of Maldives is, doesn't belong on this article. Ragnimo (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Dont think the Somali origin story should be in an ethnicity section, its clearly not talking about the individuals ethnic origin just that his burial ground was pre islamic, I understand you want to further the point he was a native however we have sources already stating that hence its redundant. He was not a founder of Walashma lets drop that not even a co founder, spiritually he influenced the dynasty and is the ancestor of the founder but thats about it. The article instead states he is a founder and ancestor of the founder which doesnt make sense, its one or the other. Who is Stephanie referring to when she says most sources indicate Al Barbari was East African instead of Moroccan? There's obviously only one Barbari now if there's multiple subjects you would need to prove it with sources. I'm going to open an RFC and let neutral editors decide if the line in question belongs in the ethnicity section. Magherbin (talk) 02:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If the origin story isn't going to be in the ethinicity section so shouldn't local oral tradition that says he arrived from Arabia shouldn't either. It was clearly talking about Saint Aw Barkhadle and i even qouted her on it make it more clear for you. And you said there should be WP:YESPOV. Then all relevant view points should be added like i listed above your response. I believe the section name should be changed back into Biography.

He was the ancestor and Grandfather of Umar Winwili who is the founder of Ifat and Walashma dynasty. That makes him part of the Walashma family as the source i added says [45] and him and walashma are considered native. The Aw Barkhadle site in Somaliland is a burial ground for the Walashma rulers. You can change it inline , i never made any such statement that he was the founder. And for the record i am not Aqooni or MostafaO the false sockpuppet allegation u launched actually showed we r unrelated , so please don't tag me with what that person says.

Stephanie is refering to Abu al-Bakarat Yusuf Al-Barbari. Stephanie said to qoute her exact words on page 5 ''In reference to Ibn Batuta's Moroccan theory of this figure, citation 8 of this text mentions, that other accounts identify Yusuf al-Barbari as East African or Persian. But as fellow Maghribi, Ibn Battuta likely felt partial to the Moroccan version

This is getting bit tiring. The discussion on ethnicity is not on Yusuf Al Kowneyn which scholars describe as a local/native East African/Somali saint but about an Island Sheikh in Maldives. Do you understand or do i have explain it again? Ragnimo (talk) 07:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

RFC regarding appropriate ethnicity content

Does the following belong in the ethnicity section?

However these Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints are refuted by scholars as mythical and are seen as an Islamification of a prior pagan divine kingship story related to Waaq. Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. This goes hand in hand with the evidence presented on the site of Aw-Barkhadle as a place tied to syncretic religious rituals and a sacred place with many non-Islamic features.

Magherbin (talk) 04:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

References

• Move to Family and Ancestral legacy or Shrines section It has more to do with origins of Somalis themselves especially ancestral myths conflated with religion and less to do with Yusuf's ethnicity hence belongs in a different section such as Family and Ancestral legacy or Shrines. I dont think an explanation for the origins of Somali clans myth is appropriate in this section or the introduction. Magherbin (talk) 04:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
• Keep and change the section name into Biography The origin story has to do with Saint Yusuf Al Kowneyn origins, Somali ancestral saints in general, it's Somalis who made the myth up about him and he is tied to Somalis. Because he is the ancestor in question that is spoken of. It's not conflating religion. It's Religious syncretism. Learn what that means first before you try to object. An explanation is fitting if we adhere to WP:YESPOV all view points should be added. However i gave a proposal that it should be reworded/changed into the following to give it more neutrality:

Local oral tradition claims that Yusuf allegedly arrived from Arabia.[46] However Arabian origin stories pertaining to ancestral saints such as Yusuf are regarded as a myth by scholars and an islamification of a prior pagan origin story that relates back to Waaq and ancestor worship. That now ties the Somali to the prophets clan (Quraysh). Religious synchronism where the old religion is adapted to reflect the hegemony of the new in that the ancestral home of the ancestors in Arabia, the headquarters of Islam. [47] [48] [49] Thus Yusuf has been affirmed to have 'exalted origins' through being related to the prophet.[50]

Yusuf is described by some scholars as a native [51][52] [53] and as a Somali [54] [55] ....

This assumes a WP:YESPOV and all the relevant view points are added. The Point view of oral tradition that claims he allegedly arrived from Arabia(1) The point of view of scholars that regard this as an ancestral origin myth linked to religious synchronism(2) The point of view of scholars that describe him as a native (3) and the point of view of scholars who describe him as a Somali.(4)

Sources that supports each statement is included. I added sources for each statement for people to look through and verify. None of it is my opinions.

I believe it's more fitting to change the section name back into it's original name Biography because it covers a much wider topic than ethnicity or origins but his life, travels, achievements etc.

Ragnimo (talk) 08:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Many sources claim he arrived from Arabia, if you want to make a case that some scholars see that as possibly not being accurate, the biography nor the ethnicity section is the place to do it. Ethnicity is for his ethnic background while his bio should be about his life, works etc not speculation on his grave or the origin of Somalis. The article is POV as you recently added "therefore he is somali", its not up to editors to decide what the subject was. Magherbin (talk) 01:04, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

You tried to claim he wasn't the ancestor and founder of the Walamsha Dynasty but I've posted this source [56] agreeing he was the founder and ancestor of the Walashma Dynasty and I can post many more. Yes, there are sources that claim he arrived from Arabia but there are also other sources that criticize them and consider it a myth so I see no reason for you to remove it or else it'll prove you have an agenda here. Remember he was the founder of Wadaad writing so it would be foolish to assume back then an Arab man created a script for the Somali people. [57] Well if the source claims he arrived from Arabia then it should be in the biography and it shouldn't be a problem if it discrediting that Arab claims in the biography section because most of Aw Barkhaadle achievements is mentioned in the biography more so than a neutral Pov. I mean biography is not only an account or detailed description of the life of a person. It also entails basic facts, such as lineage, childhood, education, career, relationships, family, and death. Ayaltimo (talk) 4:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

You're only on this page since you had a dispute with me elsewhere, read WP:HOUND hence I cant accept you as a neutral party, I opened this RFC for neutral editors input. You should read the source, it says ancestor of the founder not a founder, the founder of Walashma is Omar Walashma not Yusuf [58]. Magherbin (talk) 04:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

No, but I can discuss here. You tried to remove one of the previous edits without consulting other users so I came here to discuss my reason for reverting back and yes, Umar Walashma was the founder of the Walashma Dynasty but Umar's ancestor was Aw Barkhaadle and that is not disputed and my sources say that but you tried to claim he wasn't the ancestor. I've given you the source that he founded the Somali writing script further proving he was ethnic Somali. The discussion is done here. Ayaltimo (talk) 4:28, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Where did I claim he wasnt an ancestor? My edit clearly supports his ancestor status [59], you're being disruptive which is why I reported you. Magherbin (talk) 05:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

You reported me for reverting vandalism from persistent sockpuppetry on here [60]. You'll see multiple sock accounts then the sock using IP and makes a new account that's when you got involved because you have personal issues with me after engaging edit warring with Ragnimo on here [61] and even tried it on here with multiple users so don't call anyone disruptive when that's clearly you. I may have mistaken one of your edits but that doesn't justify you from removing other sources on here that have been edited by multiple users. I suggest you quit edit warring on multiple pages and engage in good faith. --- Ayaltimo (talk) 5:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know what you both are arguing about. My proposal above is solid. They are line with the refrences and covers every point of view with neutrality. I will copy that into the page.

@Magherbin not a single source says he is Arab. Sources do not state he comes from Arabia they are paraphrasing an oral tradition while giving no affirmation to the claim itself which is considered a myth. Simple as that. I added two sources in my keep response that state he is Somali and so is him regarded as a native sourced. Ragnimo (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

He is Asharaaf Hassani

he is Asharaaf Hassani 197.235.244.137 (talk) 03:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Yusuf's ethnicity

@trisolar Read the RFC on the talk page [62], Magherbin (talk) 02:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

You suggest that Somalis were not in the region at the time. Archaeological, genetic and linguistic evidence asserts that Somalis have been in the region for at least the last 7000 years. You even suggest Berber (Amazigh) at one point. The reality is most scholars conclude he was a native of Somalia and a Somali. Until you can find multiple credible sources that state otherwise we’ll follow the historical consensus. TriSolar (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

We follow the community consensus and judging by the RFC most voted neither for the introduction, like I said in the discussions he is described even as a Moroccan. Its fine to include various viewpoints in the body paragraph or ethnicity section. Are you stating you wont follow community consensus in favor of your "historical consensus" whatever that may be? I want to clarify somethings since you stated this in the edit summary [63]. I've seen references stating he was a Somali saint this means he was a saint for the Somali people not that he was Somali himself, I know it can be confusing to read the references as stated. The Harar chronicles regard Barkhadle as a saint from Arabia along with Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti and Abadir. For example Abadir is known to be a saint for the Harari people but he was not Harari himself hence you would read references stating "Harari saint Abadir" see University of Califronia Press published book [64]. Magherbin (talk) 04:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Aw Barkhadle's birthplace

@Binglebarry refrain from edit warring. Aw Barkhadle was not born in Somaliland as Somaliland was not a state based in the 10th century. We do not claim Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim Al Ghazi to have been born in Ethiopia but rather Adal Replayerr (talk) 19:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

This is complete hypocrisy as the Federal government of Somalia nor the state of Somalia existed at that time either. Saylac is in Somaliland(and under its jurisdiction) and not Somalia as of current borders. If you use correct day border references, the country would be Somaliland. However if you were to use the borders that existed in that time it would be called Saylac, Adal Sultanate. So if you want to say "...based in the 10th century" you would actually have to put Adal as the Location and not Somalia or Somaliland. But using modern day borders Somaliland is the appropriate country to choose for the location. Binglebarry (talk) 03:48, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I reverted it to its prior state(which did not include Somaliland as it is a de-facto state) to prevent any bias however I think to prevent edit warring. It is preferential to include the state that existed during that period which is consistent with the Wikipedia format. Which is why I included the Zeila historical region instead of the federal republic of Somalia in the most recent edit. However Zeila is de-jure considered apart of Somalia

I think you may not be informed well enough but the Adal Sultanate did not exist in the 10th century. Replayerr (talk) 13:56, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

This issue of whether Saylac is a part of Somalia or Somaliland is and cannot be disputed, as Somalia has no jurisdiction there nor the neighboring districts. Somalia does not even control their own airspace nor Moqdisho as its controlled by the neighboring African states co-alined like Djibouti, Ethiopia, Uganda, and Kenya. The considering of other Saylac is part of Somalia is completely untrue. And to say that I am engaging in edit wars while both parties are changing the page in contradictory as you are a part of the so called "edit wars" you 'blame' on me. There is no FRS in Saylac but only the JSL. Therefore its current day borders can only be considered part of Somaliland and its prior borders Adal Sultanate. Binglebarry (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

We are here to discuss on the talk page before reaching a consensus. You should stop edit warring and settle the dispute here. Any futile attempt of editing will be reverted until then. @Trisolar also contests your editing of this article which is why I am asking for a discussion.

As I have aforementioned before the Adal Sultanate was established in 1415 after Sabr ad-Din III returned from exile. The saint Aw-Barkhadle was from the 10th century which is centuries prior to Adal being founded.

Derailing the article by including it when it didn’t exist during his time period is not only incorrect but ruins the authenticity of the article. The consistent Wikipedia format is to include where the area the person was born in his time period, not the “present-day state”. So that will be removed pending further talks. Replayerr (talk) 12:19, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Yusuf bin Ahmad al-Kawneyn

He is decenant of sayyid Abdulqadir jilani 2A02:6B6F:E095:7900:CB5:3C9:2403:A737 (talk) 14:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)