Talk:Yungas

Not to be to much on the country but...

How could "primarily in Bolivia" match the fact that Peruvian Yunga stretches throughout almost ALL the length of Peru (much bigger than Bolivia's) and both Yungas with a part in Bolivia extend beyond into the neighbouring countries? (Argentina and Peru respectively)? Does this even make sense?Undead Herle King (talk) 09:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Merging with Yunga

Since the person who added the merger tag didn't start a discussion, and the tag has sat undisturbed for nearly a year, I am merging the contents of Yunga into this page, Yungas. Yunga seems to also refer to a language and culture so I'll add a hat note to clarify that. I apologize if this action somehow offends someone but it seems like it was never going to happen otherwise and the pages are obviously about the same thing. Ando228 (talk) 01:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

It must be ok. The words for Region/ People/ Culture & Language seem to merge in this region.

• Andes, Andenes, Anti (Quechua)
• Quechua (Runa Simi), the language, the people, the region (2,300– 3,500 m above sea level)
• Yunga, the region, language and culture --Chris.urs-o (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sea and Fluvial Yunga

"Sea Yunga" and "Fluvial Yunga" seem to be valid terms but I can't really interpret them with the resources I have on-hand. Perhaps someone could shed some light here if they don't have time to write in the article. Ando228 (talk) 03:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that the Subtropical "Sea Yunga" is westside of the continental divide (500 to 2,300 m above sea level), under influence of the cold Humboldt current and the dry coast. On the otherside, the Subtropical "Fluvial Yunga" is the eastside of the continental divide (1,000 to 2,300 m above sea level), under the influence of the humid tropical amazonic basin. Above there is a temperate climate, below there is a tropic climate. There is an ecotone under these conditions. The WWF ecoregion classification is too rough, it does not differentiate both. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 22:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I consider that highly questionable. Unless someone provides a reference within a fair time (I'm forwarding a link to this discussion to the user who added most of the section, as well as talk of WikiProject Ecoregions) that supports that the west slope habitats described in the article under "Maritime Yungas" belong in this article, and that the terms used here actually exist in English, I will remove them per WP:V (and, arguably, WP:UNDUE). It is worth noting that the few Google results the terms "Sea Yunga", "Sea Yungas" and "Maritime Yungas" give virtually only include wiki copy pages (as far as a fast check revealed). The ecosystems here claimed as being under the Yungas are, both in terms of fauna and flora, completely different from the Yungas (contrary to the suggestion above, this is not just a case of WWF being "too rought" - rather, they simply do not include the west slope in this region). This region is usually included in the Tumbesian (now often considered an extension of the Chocó, being progressively drier towards south) and, primarily, Peruvian coastal (associated with the Atacama Desert and often simply referred to by this, though its current wiki article only is about the desert rather than the associated ecozones). So, the regions exist, but they're not part of the Yungas and based on what I've been able to find the English names used here are questionable. However, except for the names, the info currently placed under those subheadings is worth keeping, but it should be moved elsewhere, e.g. to an ecozone subsection under the Atacama/Sechura Desert or alike. • Rabo³ • 10:18, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to notice, the terms were already there when I first got to this page. I did just some minor edits. At the continental divide both slopes must have the same temperature. So the temperature gradient can be estimated from temperature at sea level (4.9°C/ 1,000 m, condensing humidity, above zero °C). There is a national reserve with a Misty Forest near Lima, Peru (Lomas de Lachay). So it seems to me the idea of a misty shore belt, a misty Yunga belt (spanish: Yunga costal) and a Quechua (geography) belt under the tree line on the west side slope, is ok. Ok, the belts should be thin at the steep west slope. Regardless you name it Maritime Yunga or Sea Yunga or anything else. As I understand, Javier Pulgar Vidal did his observations on the east slope. Natural regions of Peru, this article could be used as reference. The cold Humboldt stream produces mist and no rain at shore. But above 500 m (above mean sea level) it is the same as everywhere, business as usual, rain and so on... The german wiki page seems to agree... It would be ideal if somebody would find some reference in spanish (from Peru) about this... I know Switzerland, and the WWF map is really a rough simplification of reality...--Chris.urs-o (talk) 17:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

(sorry, re-reading the following, I see that it might approach WP:TLDR!). First, my mistake, I thought you had added that section entirely, but will look through history and forward a note to other users, if they participated significantly to it. I am very familiar with the region, and the national park Lomas de Lachay is ecologically essentially identical to other lomas in the region, i.e. generally very dry, but with a level of mist "caught" by the hills, resulting in a green oasis (in lack of better words), but its appearance varies greatly depending on season (and, in recent year, unfortunately also El Niño). Regardless, this and other lomas are ecologically completely different than the Yungas, which receive far higher levels of rain (among the highest in the world), and have no truly dry season (strictly speaking, there's a Yungas "dry" season, but even it is relatively wet, unlike in the lomas where the dry season is truly dry, and the lomas wet season really only is "wet" as compared to an otherwise essentially desert-like region). This means that the year-round vegetation in the lomas is largely xeric (e.g. succulents, with their ability to retain water), with trees being limited to thinly distributed low, deciduous growths. So, the whole region looks more like a desert for a significant part of the year. It is only for the relatively short wet season that the hills tend to "bloom" and are covered in green (and even then, the lowermost and uppermost sections usually remain rather arid). Consequently, fauna and flora associated with the Yungas for the most part would not be able to survive in the lomas (and vice versa), and in any case the high Andean plateaus in between represent a highly efficient east-west isolating mechanism. On the other hand, fauna and flora of the Yungas is strongly associated with the Amazon, as evident by the presence of species like South American Coatis, various monkeys, toucans, tanagers (not just the arid capable Thraupis), barbets, etc. In contrast, the flora and fauna in the lomas & associated lower W. Andean slopes are strongly associated with the regions further north and south (as noted earlier, part of the same ecozone[s] - also confirmed by checking the primary ref. used in the wiki article for Lomas de Lachay, though it avoids the politically sensible matter of Peruvian/Chilean names; cf. ever debated Pisco!), with species like Sechuran Fox, certain miners (e.g. Thick-billed, Coastal), Cactus Canastero, Peruvian Meadowlark, Long-tailed Mockingbird, etc. It is, by the way, interesting to note that the biogeography of the Peruvian coastal region (incl. N. Chile) is closer to the biogeography of the open and semi-open regions further south (Patagonia, Pampas, etc), where there typically are close relatives (often even members of the same superspecies) - thereby confirming the old biological rule; habitat type is more important than temperature. So, you are entirely right when you say that the WWF (and similar) maps for ecozones are rough simplifications, but that is not the issue here, where we are talking about regions in separates zones. [readability break]

Please note that using other wiki articles (regardless of their language) as references would not match WP:V, as it is WP:CIRCULAR. Likewise, being on English wikipedia, English terms and their definitions are the primary ones used, not self-made translations of Spanish terms, which approach WP:NOR and are even more problematic when they directly contradict the usual English usage of terms (as in this case for Yungas). Should someone request a check of certain books or scientific articles, feel free to contact me, as I do have access to a large scientific library with a good selection of both international and South American publications (Spanish doesn't present a problem). Otherwise, the issues mentioned in my first comment still stand. • Rabo³ • 19:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Meteorologically the continental divide influence is around 4,100 m, the Tree line on the Pacific side should be around 2,800 m for 10°C. I have dificulty to believe there is no rain between 500 m and 2,800 m, if the coast is misty. I have no way to see where is the continental divide and where is the zone border on the WWF map. The Tree line should have same Biotopes, even if the WWF Ecozone should not be the same, and under the Tree line it is Quechua (geography). I only tried to have a similar language on Natural regions of Peru and in its german wiki counterpart (de: Anden#Lebensräume). The translation of Yunga Costal to Maritime Yunga or Sea Yunga seems ok to me, but if your literature chooses another approach, it is ok for me too. Of course the Yunga on the East slope will be different to the West slope one, no problem with that. They are different, so they have different names. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 21:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you may have misunderstood me on two points: First, rain certainly does occur in the lomas, and I never said otherwise, but it is a seasonal occurrence and relatively rare (just like rain is very rare in nearby Lima, even if it is backed by the Andes, too). However, mist does not equal rain, as can be seen in a number of regions around the world (e.g. W. Namib Desert). Secondly, the issue is not that the regions here referred to as the "Maritime Yungas" and "Fluvial Yungas" are different; no-one questioned that. The issue is that the term "Yungas" in English only is used to describe the East Slope region, not the West Slope/coast (which in English is part of Peruvian coastal/Sechura/Atacama). While I have a fair grasp of German, I do not know it well enough to comment on the standard use of Yunga in that language. Consequently, comments I add here are aimed exclusively at en.wiki, not de.wiki. • Rabo³ • 20:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I did not see ur comment, sorry. I read Seibert, Paul (in Farbatlas Südamerika, Verlag Eugen Ulmer, 1996) now and u seem right. If nobody disagrees, it might be better to change this name (Yunga Costal). There is Loma-Vegetation, even some Mist forest islands, on the first westslope in Peru, on the hills near the coast, between 450 - 600 m. Otherwise, there are low cactuses and liquens. On the westside of the continental divide, the tree line seems to be missing. The transition to Puna at around 2,800 m is not clear for me, though. Subtropical succulents and thorny (briar?) shrubs seem possible. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 18:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I modified the article, tried to improve it. Westside of the continental divide in Peru is heterogeneous. The northern coast of Piura and Tumbes, Peru; might already have an equatorial Yunga Costal. The Paramos in Colombia are wetter than Punas, and they have a forest belt at the border, at the westside of the continental divide too. --Chris.urs-o (talk) 04:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Loma-Vegetation, Yunga and Yungas

The vegetation of lomas (hills), have no connection with Yunga or Yungas, so that any reference to the lomas will be deleted. Yungas and Yungas in Peru are different concepts and should be a clarification.--Maulucioni (talk) 04:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)