Talk:Yangnyeom chicken

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A fact from Yangnyeom chicken appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 25 August 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the restaurateur who developed yangnyeom chicken (pictured) created the dish after analyzing his customers' leftovers?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Yangnyeom chicken.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 14:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

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Yangnyeom chicken

... that Yangnyeom chicken is seasoned with spicy red chili paste? Source:https://www.koreanbapsang.com/yangnyeom-chicken-korean-fried-chicken/)

Created by Jirangmoon (talk). Self-nominated at 07:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC).[reply]

ALT1: ... that the developer of Yangnyeom chicken created the dish after analyzing the leftovers of customers in his restaurant?

ALT1a: ... that the restaurateur who developed Yangnyeom chicken created the dish after analyzing his customers' leftovers?

ALT2: ... that Korean fried chicken is known as Yangnyeom chicken in Korea?

ALT2a ... that outside of Korea, Yangnyeom chicken is known as Korean fried chicken?

Starting review —valereee (talk) 17:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting:

Image eligibility:

Freely licensed:
Used in article:
Clear at 100px:

QPQ:
Review is incomplete - please fill in the "status" field

Re: Yangnyeom chikin, Yangnyeom-chikin, Yangnyeom chicken. Why are we captioning this photo as Yangnyeom-chikin, the photo at the article as Yangnyeom chikin, and giving the article the title Yangnyeom chicken? It seems like we need to make these consisten. —valereee (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently chicken is the word used over chikin. I'm still not sure about the word that is used. I did a google search on borth terms, and both are commonly used. Can I Log In (talk) 05:27, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK Valereee, I'll consider the copyedit request as done, but the article still has some issues. I find the Directions section to be borderline encyclopedic. It like a how-to, talking to the reader. I'm not sure about WP:UNDERLINK.Can I Log In (talk) 22:40, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've done too much work at this article to continue review, so we'll need a new reviewer. —valereee (talk) 13:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this fails the interesting criterion in my book. Is there something we could say other than just listing an ingredient? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:57, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sdkb, nom is very new and nonnative English speaker, may need some guidance, probably also a good idea to ping when their attention is needed here. I'll try to come up with a couple of alts. —valereee (talk) 12:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT1/ALT1a sound good. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 08:47, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article meets DYK requirements for newness and length. Earwigs detects no close paraphrasing, and given that most of the main sources are in Korean I am also willing to assume good faith on that matter. Of the hooks proposed by both the nominator and Valereee, ALT1 and ALT1a are the most suitable and the most interesting; both are cited inline and referenced to Korean sources. No QPQ needed for the nominator. This is almost good to go; I will give the final approval once Sdkb and Can I Log In can confirm that they no longer have any outstanding issues with the article and hooks. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 11:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Narutolovehinata5, I haven't thoroughly reviewed the current state of the article, but I have no outstanding issues with it. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 11:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Narutolovehinata5, I did another quick copyedit, and see no outstanding issues. Can I Log In (talk) 16:36, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, we should be good to go now. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

working

Hey, Jirangmoon, the article says, He noticed that the regular fried chicken hurts the palates of customers, so he made it tender with seasoning that developed the yangnyeom chicken.[13] I'm not sure what 'hurts the palates' of his customers means, and source 13 isn't translatable. —valereee (talk) 11:36, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NM, figured it out. —valereee (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second question: do you think this should be Yangnyeom-chikin throughout? I see that's how it's spelled at Korean fried chicken.

Pinging Sawol who may have insight on that. When I go to the Korean dictionaries, they get translated as chicken, but renderings in English characters by Korean editors seem to all be "chikin". —valereee (talk) 14:01, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Third: I removed the photo of the cauliflower, as it didn't seem related? Had you been intending to work that into the article somehow? —valereee (talk) 13:57, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Valereee

Hi, valereee!

Regarding the first question: First of all, thank you for improving the article. I am not a professional in the area, English or Wikipedia. So, I could not express it in good English. I am happy that you figured it out.

Regarding the second question: I have been thinking of the matter for a long time but have not reached any conclusion yet. At the very beginning of the name (Yangnyeom-chikin) of the article, I just followed Korean editors. Later I thought that “chicken” would be better than “chikin” for searching for information, assuming most internet users may not know the words, either “yangnyeom”, or “chikin.” Korean spelling notation is hard, especially for the spacing words. Many Korean will not know which is right spacing words, 양념치킨(without space) or 양념 치킨(with space). According to the Basic Korean Dictionary of National Institute of Korean Language, 양념치킨(양념chicken : without space) is a single word as a dish like a compound. I prefer to use, “Yangnyeom-chicken“ to “Yangnyeom chicken“ referring to the Basic Korean Dictionary and Korean perspective. However, “Yangnyeom chicken“ could be better than Yangnyeom-chicken for English users. I have not found the relevant citation for “chikin” and Korean is expressed by using the Roman alphabet. So, Yangnyeom-chicken“ throughout the article would be ok for both English and Korean users, in my opinion. Also, for the beginning of the article, I would like to modify it to :“Yangnyeom-chicken (written Korean: 양념치킨; spoken Korean: Yangnyeom-chikin) is a variety of Korean fried chicken coated in a sweet and spicy sauce of gochujang, garlic, sugar, and o ther spices.”

Regarding the third: Thank you!

--Jirangmoon (talk) 11:51, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jirangmoon, the article Korean fried chicken does refer to this dish as yangnyeom-chikin, so there may already be some decision made on this by editors who are fluent in both Korean and English, but for now we'll go with yangnyeom-chicken. To make sure readers can find it, we can use as many redirects as we can think of. :) And I'm glad you are happy with the changes I made; I enjoy working on articles about food, which is why I started the DYK review, but once I started to read the article I got interested in adding to it. :) —valereee (talk) 12:10, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, looks like Sawol is objecting to using yangnyeom-chikin at all, but doesn't want to come here and talk about it. Jirangmoon, can you find a citation for the word being rendered as yangnyeom-chikin for Korean pronunciation? I can't, because of course google translate renders it in standard English for me. —valereee (talk) 12:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee, Hi again! I could not yet found the right citation for “chikin”. It will not easy to find the citation because Chicken is an adopted word. “Chikin” is not against the spelling rule. I send you a link (http://roman.cs.pusan.ac.kr/ ) for supporting “chikin” as the citation. Please try to put any Korean such as 양념 or 치킨 in the orange box of the link. Then press the 바꾸기 button. You will see some results for words converted in roman characters. Also, here are helpful links for that.

https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EA%B5%AD%EC%96%B4%EC%9D%98_%EB%A1%9C%EB%A7%88%EC%9E%90_%ED%91%9C%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95

https://ko.wiktionary.org/wiki/%EB%B6%80%EB%A1%9D:%EB%A1%9C%EB%A7%88%EC%9E%90_%ED%91%9C%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95/%EA%B5%AD%EC%96%B4

http://kornorms.korean.go.kr/example/exampleList.do?regltn_code=0004 --Jirangmoon (talk) 13:20, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jirangmoon, okay, I've added a citation for that, we'll see what Sawol thinks. I see you removed the haraideu-chikin from the etymology section? Do we need to explain it, given the banban order we describe later on including haraideu? —valereee (talk) 13:53, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is necessary. I think the better place for this would be the Korean Fried Chicken article. --Jirangmoon (talk) 03:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1) 치킨, 후라이드 are not Korean but a word of foreign origin. Especially, huraideu is Konglish. Sawol (talk) 14:07, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sawol, why does it matter whether it's a word of foreign origin or Konglish if it's what is typically used in Korea according to reliable sources? —valereee (talk) 15:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Korean uses 치킨 (chicken), 프라이드 (fried), not chikin, peuraideu. 치킨 is from chicken. So, 치킨 should be translated to chicken naturally. Most Korean learned English. They know a word chicken. They may laugh at chikin. Sawol (talk) 15:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2) yangnyeom is a word and chicken is a word. Yangnyeom chicken has to have the space.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sawol (talk • contribs)

This is all feeling like it might be POV-pushing. —valereee (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Piotrus who is a member of WikiProject Korea and may be able to offer some advice or insight, or suggest someone who would be better. We have two editors disagreeing over the rendering of Korean language and what this article subject should be. I have zero understanding of what's going on except for a fuzzy recall of a mention in one of the sources about a Korean language governing body that rejected common parlance haraideu-chikin, insisting instead on dakgogi-twigim (chicken meat fritter), which is making me think this may be some sort of POV-pushing issue about Konglish and borrowed words. —valereee (talk) 16:15, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Summon, I appear. I am hardly an expert on Korean to English translation, but I think the confusion started due to the article on Korean fried chicken using 'chikin' instead of 'chicken'. I believe Jirangmoon based her article title/usage on what was already present in that other article. Personally I prefer chicken to chikin, so I would support the usage of the proper English. I also don't see why a hyphen is used, after all "Friend chicken" > "Friend-chicken" or such, so my vote would go for "Yangnyeom chicken" throughout. Here is a random reliable (not blog, etc. major newspaper instead) source for that spelling: [1]. And we can just remove the other name variants from the article, redirects will be enough. How does that sound to everyone? PS. I'd also recommend fixing the -chikin to chicken on the Korean friend chicken article. Btw, some content you added here, User:—valereee, seems more relevant to that other article (as in, general history of fried chicken in Korea)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:14, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Yangnyeom chicken is the best name for the article. I used "-chikin" because I saw it in the Korean Fried Chicken wiki article and I followed.--Jirangmoon (talk) 03:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yay, consensus! Thank you, Piotrus! —valereee (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]