Talk:Yaduvanshi Ahirs

Your citation says the connection is probable. nobody is objecting to it. However, it is vague and we cannot take any definitive stand on this. Col Todd's words are already there. nothing more is required in this regard. Ikon ^No-Blast 17:19, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yadavs of Haryana were forward not Backward

"The Mandal Commission categorized Yadavs as backward in Bihar and UP but forward in Haryana. So much for considering caste as a rational criterion for reservation! Years ago Choudhary Brahm Prakash, an Ahir, succeeded in categorizing Delhi Yadavs as educationally backward. The educational limitation was soon forgotten. Yadavs became backward for all practical purpose." http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?234865 Sumitkachroo (talk) 07:15, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SK, great find! Do you have any ideas on how to incorporate that data, or should I take a stab at it in the next day or so? MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These Ahirs(Abhiras) came from Eastern Iran

"The Abhiras who came from some part of Eastern Iran seem to have settled at first in northern Sindh."

Uttankita Sanskrit Vidya-Aranya epigraphs, Volume 2

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=C-gaAAAAMAAJ&q=abhiras+came+from+eastern+iran&dq=abhiras+came+from+eastern+iran&hl=en&ei=9kOtTaaGOcjSrQeF_pz7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg

Prāci-jyotī: digest of Indological studies, Volume 10-page-113

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=KkWtTbSXI8iqrAf69q2TCg&ct=result&id=BBBuAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhiras+came+from+eastern+iran&q=+foreigners

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=AqKw1Mn8WcwC&pg=PA32&dq=#v=onepage&q=abiravan&f=false

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=U1gIAAAAQAAJ&q=abhira+afghanistan&dq=abhira+afghanistan&hl=en&ei=jR6UTcjAMYqqrAek_LnoCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAzgU

The tribes and castes of Bombay, Volume 1 By Reginald Edward Enthoven--page -23

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FoT6gPrbTp8C&pg=PA23&dq=abhira+afghanistan&hl=en&ei=7jqtTcrvFYuivgOIhPTWCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=India%20from%20Afghanistan&f=false

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=AqKw1Mn8WcwC&pg=PA32&dq=

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=GW5Gx0HSXKUC&pg=PA438&dq=abhira+afghanistan&hl=en&ei=yhWUTbHfGo_MrQfwpZH9Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg#v=snippet&q=Indo-Greek%20king%20Agathocles%20%20abhira&f=false

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=5RiUTYfiJMrWrQfh3JnzCw&ct=result&id=41MIAAAAQAAJ&dq=abhira+afghanistan&q=abhiras

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=41MIAAAAQAAJ&q=abhira+afghanistan&dq=abhira+afghanistan&hl=en&ei=5RiUTYfiJMrWrQfh3JnzCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBjgK

Oriental studies, Part 1-page-57

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=_yKUTZGqMsTUrQfT1qyBDA&ct=result&id=Rl7YAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhira+afghanistan&q=+abhiras

The History and Culture of the Indian People: The age of imperial unity-page-221

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=-j2tTdmjDpGgsQOosvmRAw&ct=result&id=-3dDAAAAYAAJ&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&q=some+part+of+eastern+Iran

Catalogue of the Coins of the Andhra Dynasty, the Western Ksatrapas, the ... By E.J. Rapson

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=hGAHmIW04noC&pg=PR134&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&hl=en&ei=hT6tTcXRG4G4rAe0-MiSCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=foreign%20invaders%20of%20India&f=false

The Age of imperial unity, Volume 2, Part 1-page-221

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=hT6tTcXRG4G4rAe0-MiSCg&ct=result&id=B1WgAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&q=some+part+of+eastern+Iran

Advanced history of India

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=dvkgAAAAMAAJ&q=abhiras+are+foreigners&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&hl=en&ei=hT6tTcXRG4G4rAe0-MiSCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFAQ6AEwCTgU

Geographical data in the early Purāṇas: a critical study-page-129

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=vz-tTYfDG4KsrAe_opWUCg&ct=result&id=iGXl3hlmQyYC&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&q=Herata+and+Kandahar68

New light thrown on the history of India: the historical Naga kings of India, 6th C.B.C.-14th C.A.D.-page-76

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=KQ8uAAAAMAAJ&q=abhiras+are+foreigners&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&hl=en&ei=70CtTbmKDcbqrAeBzMWCCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgy

Buddhism in western India-page-54

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=hkGtTdKSF4-GrAeAlrSLCg&ct=result&id=BoAEAAAAYAAJ&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&q=of+eastern+Iran

India as seen in the Bṛhatsaṁhitā of Varāhamihira-page-65

http://books.google.co.in/books?ei=hkGtTdKSF4-GrAeAlrSLCg&ct=result&id=KQAbAAAAMAAJ&dq=abhiras+are+foreigners&q=some+part+of+eastern+Iran

Some early dynasties of South India By S. Chattopadhyaya

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=78I5lDHU2jQC&pg=PA127&dq=abhiras+came+from+eastern+iran&hl=en&ei=9kOtTaaGOcjSrQeF_pz7CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=Abiravan%2C%20in%20eastern%20Iran%2C&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raosaab7 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't this article be merged with Ahirs?

Are there any Ahirs who don't claim descent from Yadu? Is there distinct classes of Yaduvanshi and non-Yaduvanshi Ahirs, or can this whole article just be merged into Ahirs? MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All ahirs are not kshatriyas, also remember not all ahirs are Shudras.

Yaduvanshi Ahirs are descendants of 'Yadu' and are of Kshatriyas Varna.

Nandvanshi Ahirs are descendants of Nand cowherd who was of Vaishya varna.

Gwalvanshi Ahirs were gwals { considered as Shudras ) who also believe that as their forefathers moved with Krishna so they are also Yadavs , they dont have gotras like Yaduvanshi and Nandvanshi.

The most intersting fact is they all three don't intermarry.Sumitkachroo (talk) 11:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good points, I had read on the Nandvanshi and Gwalvanshi, but got mixed up about whether they also claimed Yadu descent as Yadavs. In any case, looking at this article, I'm not seeing any content that's not repeated in Ahir and/or Yadav, except for a few small points where the reference explictly says "Yaduvanshi Ahir", and I'm pretty sure we could just add those as a sub-section of Ahir. Do you not agree that 90% of this article is just a repeat of content from Ahir and Yadav? MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I took a harder look at it. Most of the article didn't even mention the specifically Yaduvanshi Ahirs, so those portions were redundant to Ahirs and I removed them. Then a few areas mentioned Yaduvanshi Ahirs, yet the footnotes they cited just said "Ahirs", so same as above removed. The third category is the few cases where both the article and the cited text say "Yaduvanshi". I've left those, though there's probably some redunant stuff mixed up in there too. Let's take a look at GoogleBooks for "Yaduvanshi" and its various spellings, and work the article up from scratch in a way that is specific to the Yaduvanshi Ahir, with the more general "Ahirs overall" content being kept in Ahirs, and umbrella-group Yadav info there. Sound good? This way we can avoid the massive tangled redundancy. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:22, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good that you are taking so much interest on yadavs and ahirs, initially i did a lot of research on tribes of north indian including gujjars and jats . Articles about jats , gujjars and ahir / yadavs are full of pride and martial history, If you go to jats these have clubbed their martial history with Sikh jats however both are different and do not intermarry same goes with Article on Gujjars who have mentioned themselves as Kshatriyas and Brahmans and like jats immigrants from Europe.The fact is according to cast hierarchy it is rajputs , jats , yadav /ahirs and then Gujjars/ meenas .My whole point is this is a very sensitive issue as many clans of rajputs , Yaduvanshi ahirs {not other 2 ahirs}, jats and Gujjars have common roots. So make sure if you have taken this task you do the same with other sisiter caste communities.Sumitkachroo (talk) 09:34, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The link of jaduvanshi or yaduvanshi ahirs with Bhatti clan of Rajputs.Hence shows they are Kshatriyas. The Tribes and Castes of the Central Provinces of India. Forgotten Books. pp. 24–. ISBN 9781440048920. Retrieved 3 June 2011. {page 24)Sumitkachroo (talk) 07:49, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very useful page you cite, good source for laying out the different branches. Do note though, we do need to make sure we don't make the sources say anything they don't explicitly say. The book says "claimed" descent, so we need to make sure that we don't say "totally true" when the book says "claimed".

These are indeed sensitive issues, and ideally all India caste articles should be cleaned of bias, but in the meantime we are only two people, and "other articles are bad too" is no reason not to clean up the Ahir/Yadav articles. One question on scope: do you concur that the scope of this particular article should be "Yadav" in the context of the Ahir-Yadav agricultural caste, rather than "everything ever called Yadav"? I just fear that the earlier versions of the article linked in everyone ever claiming descent from Yadu, rather than focusing on the modern Ahir-Yadav umbrella caste. Thoughts?

These is no refrence i could found (even on google books) that says that Yaduvanshi Rajput ever used Yadav as last name. But ahir yadavs gives me About 1,100,000 hits on Goolge.Yaduvanshi Ahirs use Yadav as last name from more than 600 years (Refrence available on google books) , however in 1900 many groups of Ahirs (leaving aside Gujarati and Marathi ahirs, who also feels they are Yaduvanshi's) started using Yadav as last name. Those were mailnly Gwalvanshi's ahirs of Eastern Uttar pradesh and Bihar (desperate to upgrade their social status, majority of them were landless labourers opressed by Thakurs and Bhramins, they have formed gorilla armies and still fighting for their land rights some have even become naxal communists) and these gwalvanshi ahirs are mixed blood of many tribes including Gonds. Nandvanshi's (farmers and milkmen of central Uttar pradesh they hold a respectable position). However now Indian government recognises all ahirs and it's subcastes as Yadavs.However Yadu-vansh is a very big umbrella that inclused many tribes of Rajputs (including Muslim rajputs) like Tomar,Chauhan,Jadeja,Jadoon Patahans,Rathors,Meos,Chudasama, Jadaun,Bhatti,Tanwar,Khanzada etc. even some clans of Jats and obviously Yaduvanshi ahirs as name says comes under Yadu-vansh.

Historians view on Yaduvanshi Ahir's

Yaduvanshi have their own kingdoms since Krishna times, Many historians believe Yaduvanshi ahirs are true Yadavas and their last kingdom was of Rewari,They hold a respectable position among other castes and their looks , physique, dressing, culture , habits and even language is same as other communities like Rajputs and jats, however all major comminities (rajputs , Yaduvanshi ahirs and jats ) feel they are superior than other and boast of their maritial history and army medals. According to A. H. Bingley, writing in 1899, Jadu settlements were at Indraprastha and Dwarka.After the death of Krishna the yadus were driven out of India, founded Ghazni in Afganistan, and ruled over the whole of that country and portions of central Asia, as far north as Samarkand.The pressure of Greeko Bactrian and Muhammadan invasion forced them back into the Punjab, and later period they were driven across the Satluj into the Bikaner desert, where they established themselves as Jaisalmer. In the Punjab the Yadus are known as Bhattis, but comparatively few are Hindus , the majority are converted to Islam,shortly after the early Muhammadan conquests.A large number of the Musalmans of eastern Rajputana are of Yadu descent , and are known locally as Khansadas amd Meo's.

In Awadh and in the North Western provinces where the Yadons have numerous settlements, the clan is divided.One branch calls itself Yaduvanshi Ahirs, to distinguish it from Yadons of the Daob, who have lost status through practising Karao or widow -marriage, and through violating Rajput custom by marrying into their own clan.Sumitkachroo (talk) 07:14, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns of cites specifying only "Ahir" vice "Yaduvanshi Ahir" - Merge?

I've been going through the online citations, and between footnotes 1-27, I'm only seeing a few cites where the work specifically mentions the Yaduvanshi Ahirs, with the vast majority instead referring to Ahirs in general. Some of the cites have very interesting material, but if the material isn't specific to the Y. Ahirs, it should go in Ahirs, not here. Otherwise we're simply duplicating data, and in some cases incorrectly implying that a given practice/event/feature is specific to the Y. Ahirs, when in fact it pertains to the Ahirs overall. If we go through and remove (or merge into Ahir) all content not specific to the Y. Ahirs, I believe the whole article would be condensed down into a paragraph or two, and might be better off merged into Ahirs in a sub-section on Y. Ahirs.

Am I understanding correctly, or do you feel that the majority of the material specifically references unique aspects of the Yaduvanshi Ahirs as opposed to Ahirs overall? MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted most of the article for conflation with Ahirs

The vast, vast majority of the article dealt with Ahirs or Yadavs rather than specifically the Yaduvanshi branch of the Ahirs. Accordingly, I've removed all but those few pieces of material specifically dealing with this branch. When I go to clean up Ahirs, I will check on past drafts of this article to find what useful information may be copied and pasted into the Ahirs article as part of the broader description of the community. Again, this article really must stick to covering primarily the Y. Ahir branch, with minimal amounts of other context since the greater Ahir and Yadav communities are covered in their own articles. Given the article's current shortness, I suggest it be merged into Ahirs. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:14, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Glad that someone was bold enough to sort this mess out. I support the merge, given the lack of referenced content. The page can be turned back into a full-fledged article, if someone comes up with substantiate non-overlapping content . utcursch | talk 19:01, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, Abhira tribe is another article that repeats the Ahir content. utcursch | talk 19:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, it actually went pretty quickly because most material was obviously about Ahirs in general, and only 1/3 of the refs took a 10-second glance to assure that "Yaduvanshi" was not specified. So far as Abhira tribe, the main issue is that I need to disentangle the Abhira-->Ahir issue to separate the pages. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's little clear connection, but numerous pages are proceeding along an assumption of synonymity. I would imagine that in the end Abhira will cover the historical tribe, and Ahir will cover the modern grouping of herdsmen, and a few sentences in each article will mention "some believe X and Y are related, *insert brief summary of debate here*". This whole Ahir/Yadav thing has been a massive mess, but I think it's starting to clean up, and after that point it'd be nice to actually build up the topics, but in the short term I'm just trying to remove redundant and misleading info first. Any thoughts from your angle are indeed most welcome. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very late update - I am redirecting to Ahir as there is nothing here which is not already there. This madness has gone on for far too long. - Sitush (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (The reason given for deletion request states that the word "Yaduvanshi Ahir" does not exist. This is the weakest claim one can imagine when the very 1st and 2nd resource of the page itself proves it's existence. The claim is made without reading any of the resource provide in the page.) --HinduKshatrana (talk) 07:36, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (yaduvanshi ahir are different from rest of ahir. It is like an insult to haryanvi yadav to be in category of low caste whereas they have been rulers and were even aristocrat during mughal empire. Yaduvanshi ahir are a respected community in ahirwal and even Brahmins regard them so.) --27.56.162.244 (talk) 14:13, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]