Talk:World War II casualties/Archives/2009/August

British Dead

United Kingdom and Colonies

The losses listed here are those reported by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.[29] Total military deaths were 383,677 which included Army (210,197), Air Force (84,786), Navy (59,167), Merchant Navy (28,905), and civilian auxiliary deaths (612). These losses include war related deaths during 1946-47.(16,628)[22]

I am concerned by how these figures have been collected. None of them appear to be pieces of information one can just look up to verify.

The article states there was 382,700 military deaths however the footnote then claims the War Graves Commission's website (citation 22) states there was in fact 383,677 deaths. However going to citation 29 - the report - one finds the War Graves Commission reports only 244,621 identified burials. So three separate figures, which one is right? If the report was used as a source where do the other two figures come from? On top of which one cannot, as i have just tried, get a list or a number off the link provided by citation 22 that claims 383,677 deaths - attempting to do a search without a name just brings up an error screen.

Anyone like to clarify the situation and the alternative figures?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

CWGC total of 383,677 no longer verifiable by branch of service(web service no longer gives annual totals) The figure for Newfoundland is listed seperately, not with the UK. Total war dead were 383,677, 244,621 identified burials by CWGC and the remainder commemorated on war memorials.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The statistics tabulated The Commonwealth War Graves Commission are representative of the number of names commemorated for all servicemen/women of the Armed Forces of the Commonwealth and former U.K. Dependencies, whose death was attributable to their war service. Some auxiliary and civilian organisations are also accorded war grave status if death occurred under certain specified conditions. For the purposes of C.W.G.C. the dates of inclusion for Commonwealth War Dead are 03/09/1939 to 31/12/1947.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Note well the CWGC says death was attributable to their war service, that would mean dicharged personnel who died of wounds.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that total deaths are no longer verifiable by branch of service, I did an inquiry in 2006 and was able to pull up the figures, they no loger allow an inquiry by date range--Woogie10w (talk) 15:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The figure for civilan dead for the UK and Malta is limited to those civilians under Crown protection. That would exclude civilans interned in ememy nations. I have never seen a relaible source with that figure for the UK.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No problems, i didnt realise that the website use to have the feature to find out the numbers lost in each service. Its a pity that tool has been cancelled.

As for the report, i notice how you have tallied both the commemorated and the identified burials. Looking at the report again and how the end total is worked out, it is obvious that this is also what the graves commission have done. I initially dismissed that second column and thus misterpreted the data the report was showing me.

Would i be correct in stating the report claims 383,667 dead in total for the Untied Kingdom and colonies excluding missing, civvies and Dominion forces.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the response the CWGC gave me regarding their statistics The war dead totals listed in the report are based on the research by the CWGC to identify and commemorate Commonwealth war dead. The statistics tabulated The Commonwealth War Graves Commission are representative of the number of names commemorated for all servicemen/women of the Armed Forces of the Commonwealth and former U.K. Dependencies, whose death was attributable to their war service. Some auxiliary and civilian organisations are also accorded war grave status if death occurred under certain specified conditions. For the purposes of C.W.G.C. the dates of inclusion for Commonwealth War Dead are 03/09/1939 to 31/12/1947.

Figures include subjects in the colonies as well as missing an presumed dead. The small number of civilians would be those fighting with the military. I did OR using their Debt of Honour register and found an estimated 15% war dead from the colonies, including a local policeman killed in the 1940 occupation of Somaliland.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Understood. So if i wanted to present the total number of dead from the UK (inc) colonies in another article the figure talked about above would be spot on?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

383,667 dead in total for the Untied Kingdom and colonies, including Newfoundland. Source CWGC Report, which as official as you can get--Woogie10w (talk) 18:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for going over this.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 18:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Holocaust victims

Two issues: 1.) Why are there no numbers for total holocaust victims, only the Jewish victims? 2.) The numbers given in the article are not very close to the numbers given in the sources cited. For example, the article states that 1,000 to 2,000 Catholic clergy were killed, yet the source for Poles killed has a number of 3,000 Polish Catholic Clergy killed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.202.61 (talk) 21:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Most sources consider only Jews as Holocaust victims. Some sources do include non-Jewish victims of the Nazis with the Holocaust. Jews were targeted for total elimination, the other groups were not--Woogie10w (talk) 22:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Slavs and Gypsies (Roma people) were aimed for total elimination, too. Its even stated in Mein Kampf.

USHMM article cited [[1]] states 2,720 Catholic clergy in camp, 1,034 died.--Woogie10w (talk) 22:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct flag and link for China?

In the table 'Human Losses of World War Two by Country', are the flag and link for China correct? They refer to China(Taiwan) but I doubt Taiwan had a population over 500,000,000 at that time, because now it as just over 70,000,000. Please correect flag and link when these are truely incorrect. --Anonymous 08:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.212.130.235 (talk)

The flag is correct. The Republic of China controlled most of mainland China until 1949. Kransky (talk) 07:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Deaths as a percentage of population have not been calculated correctly

Burma should be 1.69% New Zealand should be 0.73% —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahe2 (talk • contribs) 06:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Mahe is correct, please change this 203.97.98.36 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC).

East Timor / Portugal

Just to add a small clarification on the footnote regarding Portuguese Timor as said on the list above - the footnote number 45 should also say that East Timor was a Portuguese Colony back then. Now its refered as a fact that some guerrillas where fighting there against the japanese force of ocupation. Now, is there any number on casualties and nature of that force, like, was it resistance or allied comandos? 93.108.213.157 (talk) 16:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC) Rafael V. 27/08/2009

Hi Rafael. See the Battle of Timor article. The number of Allied personnel killed in Timor during 1943–43 was about 450. That would not include Portuguese or Dutch civilian subjects, including East and West Timorese people. Portuguese and East Timorese guerrillas would be included among the 40–70,000 civilian dead. Grant | Talk 11:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Greek losses are wrong.

Military deaths 40-41 13.327 Killed + 1.237 Missing (never found)
Middle East deaths (Greek Army moved there during the War) 1.100
Deaths on battles under occupation (resistance) 20.650
Civilians executed in Greece 56.225
Civilians executed in Germany after transfer 105.000 (including some 67000 Greeks-Jews)
Deaths by bombing 7.120 (mixed but mostly Civilians)
Merchant Shipping Deaths 3.500 (Civilians)
Food shortages, massive inflation, and finally a devastating famine during especially 1941-1942 600.000+ Civilians
Grand TOTAL: 808.159 (And not 311.300 as you say)

1940 population 7.344.860
1944 population 6.805.000 instead of the normal projected 8.500.000+

Source ΜΑΥΡΗ ΒΙΒΛΟΣ ΤΗΣ ΚΑΤΟΧΗΣ - SCHWARZBUCHES DER BESATZUNG - BLACK BIBLE OF THE OCCUPATION Athens 2006
(The official document of the committee which is after the German Compensations)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2115345/-

So I believe you should re-write correctly the numbers for the Greek state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.12.199 (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I checked the figures, they make demographic sense. The data on the page now is from 1950 and needs to be updated. The source is official, and very detailed. Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information. --Woogie10w (talk) 02:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)