Talk:World Scout Emblem

Scouting High‑importance

	Scouting portal World Scout Emblem is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ScoutingWikipedia:WikiProject ScoutingTemplate:WikiProject ScoutingScouting
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

BSA

Sigh. As the "World Crest" is first a world-wide scouting patch, that fact needs to be covered first before speaking of the BSA's usage of it. --Emb021 20:23, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly applaud good coverage of usage outside the BSA, but I think the current version is a little choppy in going back and forth between BSA and international usage. Perhaps the problem is in the title. The original goal of the article was to talk about the "World Crest", which is why that is the title of the article. Perhaps a different article needs to be created at "World Membership Badge"? Or we could move this article to "World Membership Badge" and then talking about international usage first, then BSA specific usage, might read better. I am fine either way.

On a seperate note, when you edited the article, you partially removed 2 of the 3 footnotes. I will work on restoring those. Johntex\^talk 17:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

International Participant Award

I cannot find any information about this award. I don't think you meant the International Scouter Award (basically a square knot). Any references on this other award? --NThurston 20:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When?

I can't find any information on when this particular design was adopted - lots on what it means... The original Scout's Badge, as drawn in Scouting for Boys, had the arrowhead (as BP himself names it), but not the knot... Horus Kol 10:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

nevermind - i found it in one of the original references - the crest seems to have been introduced in the 1950's... Horus Kol 11:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

proposed rename and expansion

This article as it is written right now covers both the World Crest, a very specific single badge, and other uses of the fleur-de-lis in Scouting. Most Scout orgs use the f-d-l itself, but do not have the knotted rope frame, and modify it with national emblems. If this article is to be about the specific badge, then it should only be about the badge. If it is about the symbology shared by 98% of Scout orgs, to include those not aligned with WOSM, it needs to be renamed and expanded slightly to go more into the symbolism, meaning, and uses. Chris 20:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One fix is to move most of the BSA stuff into an article on the IAB and cut the BSA usage to a paragraph. I will take that task. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is the official WOSM name? TSA refers to it as the World Membership Badge but I can't find any reference on the WOSM site. The BSA calls it the World Scout Crest. This article should use the official name and use redirects for the others.

WOSM just released their Brand Manual [1] that calls it the World Scout Emblem. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs to be properly summarized in World Organization of the Scout Movement.

--Gadget850 ( Ed) 18:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To point two, why? Chris 13:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is a section in WOSM titled "Badge" that describes this. Once this article is stable, the lead should be used as the section with a main tag per WP:SS. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Stale

To return to the name...

Per the WOSM Brand Manual, it is the World Scout Emblem.
The Scout Association refers to it as the World Membership Badge.
The Boy Scouts of America call it the World Crest

I suggest using the WOSM name of World Scout Emblem, noting the alternate names and creating proper redirects. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 23:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is, the World Organization of the Scout Movement claims to be the sole arbiter of BP's legacy, while there are at least five other international Scouting organizations, each of which could lay claim that their particular iteration of the fleur-de-lis is the "World Scout Emblem". Yes, WOSM is the big dog, but we don't want to get into another mess like at Boy Scouts of America's predominance. I hear what you are saying, but it is a self-titled POV name they chose. At best, it could probably be World Organization of the Scout Movement emblem, but that's horrid. Chris (talk) 06:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you are referring to this article? From this article lead: "The World Crest, also known as the World Membership Badge is a badge or patch worn by Scouts and Scouters around the world to indicate their membership in the World Organization of the Scout Movement." --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am. The AKA is in the secondary position. If we make it the primary name, it shows a dominance they claim, and de facto have, but which is not representative of all Scouts in all organizations-it's like the use of "catholic" (universal) and "orthodox" (correct) in denominations. Something is not truly universal, unless every member of that faith, creed or organization actually falls under a single organization, and something cannot NPOV claim to be correct if there are others who fall outside the group but also see themselves as correct. I suppose it's a matter of doctrine or perspective, that's all I am saying. None of the other orgs refer to theirs as the World Crest, but World Membership Badge, as a more generic term, could be claimed by any one of those orgs. Am I making sense? (I am not trying to be a curmudgeon) Chris (talk) 20:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So– "World Scout Emblem", the name used by WOSM, the owning organization, should *not* be used as the primary name? Instead, we should use the BSA name of "World Crest"? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 20:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done World Scout Committee

File:Worldcrest1957.jpg
File:Worldcrest1957sepia.jpg
something akin to this
but with the depth of _this_ purple, used in WOSM and World Crest

but with the depth of _this_ purple, used in WOSM and World Crest
Ilmari's purple version, now we just need svg, please help

Ilmari's purple version, now we just need svg, please help
File:World Crest 1957.svg

Article(s): World Scout Committee

Request: For the image, it should really be in the proportions of the sepia badge, but with the coloration scheme of the purple one. -- Chris 01:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Graphist opinion:

You mean something like this one here? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 08:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's the modern one and doesn't have the geographic information around it, but the color scheme is right, white fleur-de-lis on purple. Chris 03:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, how about this? I took the red channel from the sepia version, adjusted levels slightly to clean up the background and recolored it to white on purple like in the modern one. If that's what you want, feel free to upload it. (I've left it off-wiki so that you get to deal with all the fun and wacky issues that come with uploading non-free images.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 06:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is it, except can it be made round without the square purple background, and can it be made svg so scalable? It's great, thank you for your hard work! Chris 12:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've made the outside transparent, is that how you wanted it? Making an SVG out of that file would take some work, mainly due to the low resolution, and I'm not really convinced it's worth it. Maybe someone else may want to do it. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 13:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Ilmari, you've got it! Would someone else please convert this to scalable svg? I will be happy to deal with all the fun and wacky issues that come with uploading non-free images. :) It will, by the way, fall under the same copyright rules as the original lavender version. Chris 18:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot get it to upload. If you will upload it, I will source and credit it properly. Thanks! Chris 18:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Got it, now just need svg. Chris 22:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I created an svg from the first Image:Worldcrest1957.jpg, I can do Image:Worldcrest1957purple.png as well, since the real hard part is the text in the circle. I won't take too much time. -- Kaboom88 00:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Text on Image:World Crest 1957 purple.svg was much easier because I had correct font loaded already. Keep which ever file you want. -- Kaboom88 02:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perfect, the last one is it, thank you so much, this one is complete! That was easy! Chris 03:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed move

There has been a tag here for quite a while to rename and move the article to Fleur-de-lis in Scouting. In the meantime, Fleur-de-lis in Scouting was created. Technically, this should be changed to a merge, but let's just discuss the whole issue:

Oppose move/merge to Fleur-de-lis in Scouting. The proper name as used by the owner WOSM is "World Scout Emblem."[2] This is a very specific use of the fleur-de-lis. My primary proposal would be to rename it to World Scout Emblem; a case could be made for merging it into World Organization of the Scout Movement. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 15:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason to merge the two, but the information is overlapping and should be synchronized. Chris (クリス) (talk) 02:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With no consensus on the rename, I am closing this. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

Rename to World Scout Emblem; this is the proper name per WOSM. Create redirects for "World Membership Badge" as used by The Scout Association and for World Crest as used by the BSA. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss:

comment should this not be included in the above existing Talk:World Crest#proposed rename and expansion? It's the same thing we were doing six weeks ago. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 21:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion from 22 Sep to 17 Dec was on moving this article to Fleur-de-lis in Scouting; it went stale with no consensus. The discussion restarted on 8 Jan went to 28 Jan with two comments. This is a different proposal to move to World Scout Emblem. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any other discussion? --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 19:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reef Knot?

Last time I checked, it was a square knot, which is not the same as a reef knot.

http://sailing.about.com/od/learntosail/a/basicsailingknotshub.htm 24.126.146.134 (talk) 00:24, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See reef knot or square knot. Knots have many names; see highwayman's hitch vs. mooring hitch. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 00:50, 5 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]