Talk:World Heavyweight Wrestling Championship (original version)
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ECW
[edit]Bossman said "take it to the talk" since it "takes too long".
- There are no sources supporting the ECW traces their championship back to the NWA title
- ECW threw down the NWA title, flipped the organization the bird and said they wanted nothing to do with them
- They elevated the existing title, that predated the NWA tournament to "World" status as they left the NWA
- Making a claim against all evidence without a source is what we call Original Research and thus should be removed.
- But if someone can come up with a reliable source to support the claim by all means revert me, or you know reintroduce Original Research because "that's how it's always been written". You know what being wrong for a long time makes you?? it makes you wrong, truth and facts are not based on tenure. MPJ-DK 23:27, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- The point was they were hijacking the NWA title's claim to represent the best heavyweight wrestler in the world. That's the link. oknazevad (talk) 12:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
July 24, 1957
[edit]What basis is there for the claim in the article that the title was retired on this date? (the day of Thesz's revenge win over Carpentier). There's no reference and I for one have never heard any such thing. Generally, people who believe that the old World title still existed by '57 also believe that it carried on afterward as one of the major late C20th World titles, usually the NWA title.109.66.49.67 (talk) 20:56, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Because that was the last time there was no dispute over the championship. Carpenter continued to claim the title with support from promoters in his hometown of Montreal and in Omaha, leading tkthe creation of the World Heavyweight Championship (Omaha version), which in turn was unified with the newly created AWA World Heavyweight Championship, leading to a fracturing of titles that has never been mended, as from that point on further multiple splits have occurred, including the now-WWE Championship, the WCW World Heavyweight Championship (and its de facto successor, the World Heavyweight Championship (WWE)), the Impact World Championship, and the WWE Universal Championship, not to mention other titles that claim world title status without claiming (indirect) lineage, like the IWGP Heavyweight Championship, the ROH World Championship, the CMLL World Heavyweight Championship and he AAA Mega Championship. In short, the Thesz–Carpentier feud was the end of the undisputed World Heavyweight Championship that this original title represents. oknazevad (talk) 00:32, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, but no actual retirement of a title took place therefore this is original synthesis - see WP:ORIGINALSYN. 109.66.49.67 (talk) 07:36, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
- Also there was another World title in Southern Europe during this time held by the likes of Primo Carnera, Liano Pellacani and Danny Lynch. Plus the revived Ohio AWA title of 1962-1964 regarded the World title as having been vacant 1954-1962. 109.66.49.67 (talk) 07:42, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
- No retirement, but no unambiguous successor, either. That said, I wouldn't care if it were dialed back to the 1948 introduction of the NWA title (or when Thesz won the NWA title in 1949, thereby putting the lineal title and the NWA title together), as at that point this and the NWA perfectly overlap. oknazevad (talk) 09:37, 29 March 2018 r(UTC)
- If there was no retirement, perhaps the bit about retirement should have been rephrased. Even unofficial retirement suggests a promoter or booker in an office deciding to quietly bin a title - yet not even that happened!
- Also if supposing Vince were to buy out Impact and what's left of the NWA from Billy Corgan and merged the titles into the WWE title then there would be an unambiguous successor as the WWE title would be the only active branch left of the old 1905 title. Point being that whatever supposedly happened to the old title in 1957 did not necessarily happen in perpetuity.
- Incidentally, according to that Steve Yohe bloke, there were a couple of minor world titles doing the rounds even during Danno O'Mahonney's stint as joint Boston AWA/NWAssociation champ in '36. 109.66.49.67 (talk) 16:12, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
- No retirement, but no unambiguous successor, either. That said, I wouldn't care if it were dialed back to the 1948 introduction of the NWA title (or when Thesz won the NWA title in 1949, thereby putting the lineal title and the NWA title together), as at that point this and the NWA perfectly overlap. oknazevad (talk) 09:37, 29 March 2018 r(UTC)
AEW Title
[edit]Someone added the AEW title to legacy, I deleted it because there's no historical link between this title and the World Heavyweight title, nor any of the splinter titles. It's a brand new championship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.86.52.63 (talk) 04:23, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- So is the TNA World Title from 2007, no WP:RS ever links it to the original WHC. Numerous WP:RS ranks the NWA title to it, the WWWF Championship is linked because Rogers lost in 1 fall in 1963, but at that time you had to lose a best of three falls match for title change, so its linage has been claimed. The NWA's claim should have ended with Flair being recognized as the WCW World heavyweight Champion instead of NWA World Heavyweight Champion. There is no WP:V that post Flair the NWA can have claim to the original title anymore. The titles were unified at Vengeance (2001). The claim of the 2002 World Heavy Weight Championship (wwe version) is dubious, however there are WP:RS mainly primary from WWE themselves claiming the link. But even TNA themselves never linked the 2007 brand new TNA World Heavyweight Championship to the Original title, there is no WP:RS linking them, this completely fails WP:V. But I wont be changing anything unless other editors have a consensus, this is nothing more than pointing out some facts. Dilbaggg (talk) 14:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Dilbaggg: By your logic, we could say that about the WWE Championship, ECW Heavyweight Championship, and WCW World Heavyweight Championship. They were all "new" titles when they came about. But those three titles and the TNA World Heavyweight Championship all came about based on the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. WWE Championship came about over a dispute regarding the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. The ECW Heavyweight Championship came about when Shane Douglas threw down the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and denounced it. The WCW World Heavyweight Championship came about as WCW slowly and eventually did distance themselves from the NWA. The TNA/Impact World Championship came about as NWA stripped all titles TNA used as some in TNA (Christian Cage) didn't want to defend the NWA World Heavyweight Championship in other promotions like you were supposed to. So yes, the TNA/Impact World Championship does based on the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Mr. C.C.Hey yo!I didn't do it! 17:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- So is the TNA World Title from 2007, no WP:RS ever links it to the original WHC. Numerous WP:RS ranks the NWA title to it, the WWWF Championship is linked because Rogers lost in 1 fall in 1963, but at that time you had to lose a best of three falls match for title change, so its linage has been claimed. The NWA's claim should have ended with Flair being recognized as the WCW World heavyweight Champion instead of NWA World Heavyweight Champion. There is no WP:V that post Flair the NWA can have claim to the original title anymore. The titles were unified at Vengeance (2001). The claim of the 2002 World Heavy Weight Championship (wwe version) is dubious, however there are WP:RS mainly primary from WWE themselves claiming the link. But even TNA themselves never linked the 2007 brand new TNA World Heavyweight Championship to the Original title, there is no WP:RS linking them, this completely fails WP:V. But I wont be changing anything unless other editors have a consensus, this is nothing more than pointing out some facts. Dilbaggg (talk) 14:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mr. C.C.Hey yo!I didn't do it! No we can't say that about the WWE Championship. In 1963 the rule was titles are lost in a best of 3 falls match, but Buddy Rogers lost to Lou Thesz ina 1 falls match, NWA gave the title to Thesz and Vince Sr. in protest quit NWA while still considering Rogers teh Champion as he didn't "legally" lose the title and gave the WWWF Championship using "the tournament" as a back up. Rogers never lost the title by the standards required and recognized at that time. And after WCW withdrew from NWA in 1993 with Flair as NWA cum WCW World Heavyweight Champion that effectively ended NWA's legitimate lineage for good. The title Shane Douglas won in 1994 was brand new, no WP:RS can ever link it back to The 1905 title. Thus this alone disqualifies ECW and TNA's claims. Even so, after Christian was stripped off the NWA title in 2007, it stayed with NWA, the title Kurt Angle won in 2007 was brand new, it is pure WP:OR by WP:PW to link it to the 1905 title (nothing uncommon with PW articles). There is absolutely no WP:RS, WP:V at all that can ever link the 2007 TNA World Heavyweight Championship to the 1905 title. The NWA once did, after that the WWF and WCW did, the dispute was settled in 2001. Dilbaggg (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- You do realize that it's all fictional and any storyline justification used is just as legitimate as any other, right? And that looking for consistency from one promotion to another is a fool's errand? And that there is absolutely no such thing as a on objective standard to which you are attempting to appeal to? Plain fact is the AWA, WWE, WCW, ECW, and Impact titles all claim descent from the NWA title in some form or another, and none of those claims is inherently less valid than the other. The same cannot be said about the ROH or AEW titles as they were created ex novo, so they aren't listed. But your claims are spurious and incorrect. oknazevad (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- People are prioritizing the NWA World Title over the actual 1905 World Heavyweight Championship. NWA lost all credibility in 1993 after WCW and the then Champion Flair pulled out and I repeated already many times above why only the WWE and WCW had real lineage post 1963 and 1993 events after which dispute was settled in 2001. Regardless am not suggesting any change. Jericho was the one to unify the WCW and WF Championships and after he lost to HHH he lost the "WWE Championship" not the WCW title, in 2019 he won the AEW title thus we can link it but it is never acknowledged nor is there any WP:RS so nope doesnt't fit the criteria for inclusion. By the same logic Kurt Angle's 2007 brand new TNA title in no way fits the inclusion, nor has TNA now Impact Wrestling ever acknowledged the lineage, nor are there any WP:RS. I see a diagram taht actually accurately summarize the whole thing, no OR link with ECW and TNA. I am repeating myself since you may not have read avove, TNA is disqualified on double logic:
- You do realize that it's all fictional and any storyline justification used is just as legitimate as any other, right? And that looking for consistency from one promotion to another is a fool's errand? And that there is absolutely no such thing as a on objective standard to which you are attempting to appeal to? Plain fact is the AWA, WWE, WCW, ECW, and Impact titles all claim descent from the NWA title in some form or another, and none of those claims is inherently less valid than the other. The same cannot be said about the ROH or AEW titles as they were created ex novo, so they aren't listed. But your claims are spurious and incorrect. oknazevad (talk) 19:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Mr. C.C.Hey yo!I didn't do it! No we can't say that about the WWE Championship. In 1963 the rule was titles are lost in a best of 3 falls match, but Buddy Rogers lost to Lou Thesz ina 1 falls match, NWA gave the title to Thesz and Vince Sr. in protest quit NWA while still considering Rogers teh Champion as he didn't "legally" lose the title and gave the WWWF Championship using "the tournament" as a back up. Rogers never lost the title by the standards required and recognized at that time. And after WCW withdrew from NWA in 1993 with Flair as NWA cum WCW World Heavyweight Champion that effectively ended NWA's legitimate lineage for good. The title Shane Douglas won in 1994 was brand new, no WP:RS can ever link it back to The 1905 title. Thus this alone disqualifies ECW and TNA's claims. Even so, after Christian was stripped off the NWA title in 2007, it stayed with NWA, the title Kurt Angle won in 2007 was brand new, it is pure WP:OR by WP:PW to link it to the 1905 title (nothing uncommon with PW articles). There is absolutely no WP:RS, WP:V at all that can ever link the 2007 TNA World Heavyweight Championship to the 1905 title. The NWA once did, after that the WWF and WCW did, the dispute was settled in 2001. Dilbaggg (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- 1. The 1994 NAW title of Douglas was brand new as Flair and WCW served ties, that disqualifies ECW and TNA's lineage
- 2. After Christian was stripped off the 2007 brand new TNA World Heavyweight Championship was awarded to Kurt Angle as opposed to Christian Cage, unlike in 1963 when Buddy Roggers unfairly lost in a 1 falls match (when the requirement was three falls) Vince Sr still considered him Champion and he was awarded the WWWF Championship. Had it been Christian who was rewarded the inaugural TNA World title in 2007 then a lineage claim could be made, that wasnt the case, Angle won it while the NWA title stripped off was won by Adam Pearce. TNA themselves acknowledged it as a brand new title Angle won, never once they linked it back to the NWA world title let alone the original 1905 title, this lineage claim is based on 0 WP:RS, is pure WP:NOR and violates WP:V.
- Anyway thats the last thing I have to say about it, regardless of further replies. I am not changing anything at least not now, rather going on hiatus. But maybe someday when the time does come I can look back to this discussion for future references.Anyway thats the last thing I have to say, adios! Dilbaggg (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Dilbaggg: The WWE Championship came out of severing ties. The WWWF rejoined the NWA in the 1970s and stopped calling it a World Heavyweight Championship until they left the NWA again. The same with ECW, AWA, Impact Wrestling, and WCW. All their titles came out of being associated with the NWA at one point or another. What TNA did is their decision. It doesn't mean their title is not associated with the original World Heavyweight Championship. Again, it came out of NWA taking back their titles and ending their agreement with TNA due to Christian Cage not defending it outside of TNA. I never said anything about ROH or AEW. ROH already had an established World Championship before they had working agreements with NWA.
- You are overthinking this when it's clear those titles are linked to the original title in someway. Mr. C.C.Hey yo!I didn't do it! 19:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
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