Talk:Winston Swift Boyer

Resume content

@Drmies: I noticed that you removed significant portions of this article, citing them as "resume content." Could you kindly provide more context behind this decision? I've observed similar sections in articles about notable photographers like Edward Weston and Ansel Adams. Your insights would be greatly appreciated in helping me understand the rationale behind this. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Request Edit A

• Under early life, please add the following setence at the end of the paragraph:
  • He is the son of Winston Philip Boyer an inventor, rancher, and prospector, and mother Josephine Swift. granddaughter of Arthur G. Leonard, president of the Chicago Stockyards.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 17:25, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I feel like including the grandfather is aggrandizing name dropping to seem important. Secondly, that source doesn't mention Swift. How does the source directly support the claim? Graywalls (talk) 19:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree and suggest we solely focus on completing the updated text with proper citations. Greg Henderson (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Partly doneThe claims regarding the subject's parents (but not their occupations) were added to the article's Early life section. Regards,  Spintendo  03:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Request Edit B

• Under early life section, at the end of the paragraph add:
  • Boyer studied at the Monterey Peninsula College before embarking on travels across Mexico and the United States. He pursued his education in the film department at the University of California, Santa Cruz.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 17:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Declined It's not clear what is meant by the term "studied". Usually, individuals are noted for graduating from a facility with some type of degree, whereas "studying" could, for anyone knows, imply that the individual went to this school for a single month. The same goes for "pursuing his education" which is a euphemism for "studying". Regards,  Spintendo  03:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: It should say "Boyer spent two years at Monterey Peninsula College before setting off on journeys throughout Mexico and the United States. He pursued his education in the film department at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. Did the subject complete their time there with a degree? The same question with regards to UCSC. I think that's the information that readers will be looking for here. Please advise. Thanks! Regards,  Spintendo  04:43, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

MPC has a two-year AA degree. The citation says that he graduated after spending two years at MPC. After his travels he enrolled into film department at UCSC. It does not say if he graduated from UCSC.

So, the sentence can read: After completing a two-year term at the Monterey Peninsula College, Boyer graduated and set off on travels across Mexico and the United States. He pursued his education in the film department at the University of California, Santa Cruz. Greg Henderson (talk) 05:05, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: See Gavin Newsom (randomly chosen example), an article listed as "good article". I personally think including where he went to HS would be fine, but if you'd rather not, I don't feel strongly about including it. I am opposed to contents like went to x school, studied under y with classmates John Does 1 to 5. Graywalls (talk) 10:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Graywalls: I see what you mean with Gavin Newsome, in that case it makes sense to have that information (although being the governor may render that a less-than-apt comparison) but if you're fine with adding the high school, then I would be too. I just want to confirm with Greg Henderson — the subject graduated from this high school, correct? please advise. Regards,  Spintendo  04:13, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: Yes, he graduated from RLS high school. See article about Winston Greg Henderson (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

If you could provide the WL for RLS again, I can't seem to find it. Thanks  Spintendo  01:09, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found it, it's in the thread below this one. Regards,  Spintendo  01:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, so I've added this claim about RLS. I have to say though, it doesn't meld well with the paragraph's other text. The prose should flow like this: Subject is born, parents names, siblings names, then the mentioning of schooling. However, in this case, the claim about the subject's brother has an odd digression where it mentions something happening in the year 1981. Well this contrasts poorly with the next claim, about the school, because that occurred in 1972. So the reader will feel like a forced U-turn while progressing through the text. But that's the only place to mention the High School, because mentioning that he has a brother would be odd if it were mentioned after the claim of him graduating from high school. This paragraph has not been thought out very well, but I suppose that's the best we can do with design by committee. Regards,  Spintendo  01:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Request Edit C

• Please at the begining of Early Life section the followng text with citation:
  • "In 1972, Boyer graduated from Robert Louis Stevenson School in Pebble Beach."

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 21:21, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Declined Anything less than graduate degrees aren't usually included in BLP articles. Regards,  Spintendo  03:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I hadn't come across that before. Boyer graduated from RLS, which was a private prep boys school in Pebble Beach, the town adjacent to Carmel-by-the-Sea. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

 Implemented See the thread immediately above this one ("Request Edit B") for more info on this addition.  Spintendo  01:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request D

• In the intro, please add this sentence and supporting source citation to the end of the paragraph.
  • His work is included in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, Brooklyn Museum, Corcoran Gallery of Art, Crocker Art Museum, Fresno Art Museum, and the Monterey Museum of Art.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I thought you were going to focus on removing mess you added to various articles that fail citations needed rather than ADD stuff? Graywalls (talk) 00:33, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I was catching up on items you deleted from the Boyer article that needed to be addressed. I am working on cleanup of the Martin Murphy House now. Greg Henderson (talk) 00:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

 Declined The Carmel Pine Cone is not an authority on what permanent collections are housed at, for instance, the Fresno Art Museum. The Fresno Art Museum is an expert on their own collections, as are the others listed here experts on each of their own permanent exhibits. Primary sources are what is needed here — and even better — a secondary source (such as The Fresno Bee) along with the Fresno Art Museum website where they both mention these exhibits. Regards,  Spintendo  03:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: I think this is important that we provide this to establish notability. Here are the citations for his collections.

• Art Institute of Chicago
• Brooklyn Museum
• Monterey Museum of Art
• Corcoran Gallery of Art

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Greghenderson2006 (talk • contribs) 20:52, December 13, 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for providing these links. I've looked at all of them, the only issue I have is that while these items may be in the museum's collections, none of them appear to be what's called "on view" meaning they aren't currently displayed in the museums. The proposed claim statement does not go far enough to explain this distinction. Museums may have thousands of artifacts in their possession, but whether they give prominence to them by displaying them in the museum proper is a key point that readers may be interested to know. Perhaps if you could write a proposed sentence or two that denotes that, we could take a look at including it in the article. Also, a friendly reminder that it's important to sign all talk page posts. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  04:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: Here is the proposed sentence: "His work is included in the online collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, Brooklyn Museum, Corcoran Gallery of Art, Crocker Art Museum, Fresno Art Museum, and the Monterey Museum of Art." (citations provided above) Please let me know if this look good? Sorry about not signing.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Describing them as residing within the online collections works for me. However, the references you've provided are for 4: Chicago, Brooklyn, Monterey and Corcoran. But the proposed claim sentence includes two which are not on that list — Fresno and Crocker. So as it stands, that sentence cannot be added. Regards,  Spintendo  00:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: Good catch, here is the revised text: His work is included in the online collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, Brooklyn Museum, Corcoran Gallery of Art, and the Monterey Museum of Art.

Greg Henderson (talk) 01:15, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

 Implemented  Spintendo  09:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request E

• Please add to infobox the following:
  • education = University of California, Santa Cruz

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 21:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Please clarify, the subject graduated from UCSC? That college is not mentioned currently in the article's text. Regards,  Spintendo  00:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Scratch that, I see you stated earlier that he did not graduate from UCSC. So we're not going to add that. Regards,  Spintendo  01:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Career request edit

• Under the Career section, for the sentences: From 1976 to 1979, Boyer traveled to Italy, Germany, and France as a sports photographer for European and American publications. In 1984, he worked as a photographer for CBS Sports for the 1984 Tour de France.[failed verification]
  • Please replace the setences and citation to:
  • "During 1977, Boyer journeyed to Europe, documenting the Tour de France for cycling magazines. On a subsequent assignment in 1979, he served as a photographer for CBS."

Greg Henderson (talk) 01:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

References

 Partly done The claim regarding covering the Tour de France was updated (the source is the Monterey Herald) The claim regarding a "subsequent assignment" was not added because it's referenced by the Carmel Pine Cone, whose reliability is unknown (it's the subject speaking for himself in something resembling an interview) whereas the Monterey Herald has the claim about the Tour de France being spoken by the reporter (along with the reporter's subsequent interview). Regards,  Spintendo  00:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request F

• Please add under Career section, after the sentence: "While living on Garrapata Ridge in Big Sur for fourteen years, his Ocean Series evolved into large-scale photographs of the sea, sky, and clouds, often at sunset, from vantages in and near Big Sur."
  • In 2004, Erin Clark wrote the article titled Masquerade Winston Swift Boyer, that was about Boyer's initial exhibit of the Mask Series featuring 12 images showcased in a New York exhibition in 1982. Presently, Boyer's Mask Series comprises over 40 images. The Art Institute of Chicago hosts an online collection of his masks. Note: The ARTworks magazine was established in 1999 in Carmel, California (https://artworksmag.com/about/)

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 18:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

 Declined The prose in this section of the proposed text uses the term "presently", the use of, being deprecated in Wikipedia. The prose is also not grammatical (e.g., "In 2004, Erin Clark wrote the [sic] article titled Masquerade Winston Swift Boyer...") and contains an unexplained "note". Notes are not placed in an article's main text, nor are external links. Regards,  Spintendo  00:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: The following should fix the issue: "In 2004, Erin Clark wrote the article titled Masquerade Winston Swift Boyer, that was about Boyer's initial exhibit of the Mask Series featuring 12 images showcased in a New York exhibition in 1982. In 2004 Boyer's Mask Series comprised over 40 images. The Art Institute of Chicago hosts an online collection of his masks." Greg Henderson (talk) 01:24, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it just me, or is that not grammatical? Shouldn't it read Erin Clark wrote in 2004 Masquerade Winston Swift Boyer, about the 1982 New York exhibition of Boyer's Mask Series of 12 images. And Chicago needn't be mentioned here if it's going to be mentioned in the earlier edit request re: the four online collections.  Spintendo  01:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

 Implemented  Spintendo  09:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006 what is files.faso.us? 12 pages of copyrighted magazine scan on hosting servie isn't gonna fly if it isn't publisher's website. Graywalls (talk) 16:26, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I found the article about Boyer on the FASO website, which is from ARTworks magazine, written by Erin Clark in December 2004. The ARTworks magazine was established in 1999 in Carmel, California (https://artworksmag.com/about/). The article goes into important detail about Boyer, his life as an artist, exhibits, etc., that seemed appropriate to add to the article. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Graywalls: for catching this, I should have noticed that better. @Greghenderson2006:, I don't see Ms. Clark's publication on WorldCat, and if it's not there, it's not going to be mentioned in the article. I reverted my earlier addition of it. For future reference, any material that once existed in printed form (such as a "book" or "publication") that is to be proposed for use in the article, needs to have an entry for it on WorldCat — meaning, it needs an {{oclc}} number. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  22:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Graywalls: @Spintendo: Thank you for checking on this. I'll check WorldCat next time. I was wondering if the FASO website could be trusted. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006: whether it can be trusted or not, full article uploads of copyrighted work falls under WP:ELNEVER. We've gone through this before. A news story on the publisher or their affiliate's YouTube, ok. Some random individual or organization's re-hosting of something that was once on TV/printed is not. Graywalls (talk) 14:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Notes

Edit Request G

• In the Career section after the sentence that ends with "William Least Heat-Moon wrote the introduction to the book."
  • Please add this review:
  • The book had reviews from various national newspapers. "Robert LaRouche, of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch wrote a review in which he said: "This is an almost pure picture book-an introduction, one-line labels and the photographs. The designer's decision to drag some photos across the pages creates a gutter that interrupts the visual clarity in some cases, a small flaw in an otherwise well-executed view of an America you can still find if you look for it."

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 17:12, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what book is being reviewed here. Is it "American Roads", or is it "Blue Highways". ? If I can't tell what book is being reviewed, I can't add that review to the article. In any event, Robert LaRouche is the SLP-D's staff photographer. They are not a book reviewer. Regards,  Spintendo  22:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Spintendo: The St. Louis Post-Dispatch provided this review under the Book Reviews section of the newspaper. Although LaRouche is a staff writer, he did provide his review of the book American Roads, which has an introduction by William Least Heat Moon, the author of Blue Highways. LaRouche talks about Boyer's 64 photographs of backroads, the "blue highway," etc. If you still don't like this review I can provide another. "Boyer reminds us of the American love affair with the road. It's a nostalgic trip to be savored." Greg Henderson (talk) 22:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

"LaRouche talks about Boyer's photos in his review of Boyer's book American Roads, which has an introduction by William Least Heat Moon, the author of Blue Highways." To quote Judge Judy, that all sounds like a lot of who shot John. You said you had another review to offer, so let's go ahead and try door number 2 — if you'll place the proposed text and reference below. Since this is ostensibly a section for reviews of Boyer's work, hopefully each review in any proposed text will contain only two names at any one time: Boyer's and the reviewer (because that's all we need). Then, if there is another review, hit return twice (making a new paragraph) and place the next review in the next paragraph — hopefully, again, with just two people mentioned — Boyer and the reviewer. That needs to be the structure for any review section going forward from here. A strict 1:1 ratio for each paragraph. A particular Boyer artifact, reviewed by so-and-so. Next paragraph. A particular Boyer artifact and its reviewer. Next paragraph. And so on and so forth, just like that. Articles should not stray from that format because it works so well, and is simple and effective in describing reviews of art/artifacts/photos - anything that is "re-viewable". Please advise. Thank you! Regards,  Spintendo  16:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Missed coverage on Jonathan "Jacques" Boyer

@Greghenderson2006:, Although I've made the adjustment already, why is it that only one aspect of what he is known for was included in your edit? There are two things the brother is notable for, but you only featured the flattering side of it. As a matter of fact, I happen to notice that your articles are devoid of unflattering facets even when present in sources, yet sometimes exaggerate flattering side beyond what's supportable in reliable sources. Why is this? Graywalls (talk) 13:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

In the case of Boyer, I did not want state that his brother was a sexual offender because it was already stated in his brother's article. However, you make a good point. A good reporter/writer should provide both positive and any unflattering aspects of their lives. I will work on this and be more unbiased in my writing. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

As was his bicycling related thing. What was the justification to bring over the thing about his bicycle race thing, but not him being a child molesting predator? Graywalls (talk) 22:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I broguht in the bicycle race with Tour de France and his brother as he helped Winston come over to France and photograph the races for magazines. Greg Henderson (talk) 21:40, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit Request H

• Under External links add the following book with bio (page 47).
  • Watson, Lisa Crawford (July 6, 2015). Legendary Locals of Carmel-by-the-Sea. Carmel-by-the-Sea, California: Arcadia Publishing Incorporated. p. 47. Retrieved January 11, 2024. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

If this is added, it should be to the further reading section not external links because it is a published book (t · c) buidhe 07:11, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

References

 Comment: page 47, which purportedly carries material about Boyer, is not available/visible to me in preview mode. The very first bullet point at WP:External links#What to link asks: Is the site content accessible to the reader? Even if adding it to a further reading section is being decided upon, the last sentence of MOS:FURTHER stipulates that the WP:EL guideline governs such an editorial decision. Hence, I'm leaning towards this not being appropriate due to the accessibility issues, but will let others weigh in. Left guide (talk) 11:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In common practice, it is considered perfectly reasonable to list a source in further reading if it has significant additional info about the subject, even if it's paper or paywalled. However, a better solution is mining the text for information and citing it as a source. (t · c) buidhe 01:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm also leaning towards it not being appropriate in this case due to WP:ELREG. Encoded   Talk 💬 22:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Brother

User:Drmies,User:ScottishFinnishRadish,User:GiantSnowman: Per discussion Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Winston_Swift_Boyer there are three editors who lean away from including this information as presented. I am a fourth. It's probably OK to mention his brother in some way but no consensus the way it is currently. -- GreenC 06:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

As I said at BLPN - mention that he had a brother and who he had, but we don't need details. GiantSnowman 19:08, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to note, I restored the content primarily because it was removed by the WP:COI editor. If there is consensus from neutral editors for it not to be there, that is fine with me too. Melcous (talk) 23:36, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Primary

User:Left guide: Special:Diff/1200182352/1200184901 - this material was removed because it is a WP:PRIMARY. The policy states it is acceptable for use on Wikipedia for factual information, when not used frequently. -- GreenC 06:15, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

As presently sourced, that bit of information seems more promotional and self-serving than appropriate for an encyclopedia, in my opinion. Though it would be probably be best to gather input from others. Left guide (talk) 06:29, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, it's not a reputable publisher, fails #1 PRIMARY. The content itself is not inherently a problem IMO, only needs a better source. -- GreenC 07:10, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Request Edit for finalist

• Please add the following text under the Career section after the 2nd paragraph:
  • "In 1982, Boyer was a finalist in Cibachrome's National Awards sponsored by Ilford Photo, which had 20,000 entries."

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 00:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment This does not look like an initial addition of contents, but re-instatement of contents that had previously been disputed by another editor and removed here. Please properly explain the previous history rather than making edit requests intended to revert other editors without being transparent about it. I see no indication of discussion of content dispute with the editor who removed the content you're seeking to re-introduce, which those wishing to include disputed content is expected to do as explained in WP:ONUS. This looks to me you're just asking someone to see the request and re-introduce it without being aware of the edit history. Graywalls (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The text was removed by Left guide (talk · contribs) because he said that it was entered by a person that may have a COI. I am just asking to have it added back. I don't see any reason not to have this in the article since Boyer was a was a finalist in Cibachrome's National Awards. Greg Henderson (talk) 02:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The content, which the article's subject came into himself and added as it was something he wants it featured, while he removed something he did not want. I for one feel letting the article subject guide what to add based on relatively flimsy sourcing can be a cause for lopsided undue coverage that tends to amplify the positives while suppressing criticism. A discussion should be held here if including details like this is due. @Left guide, Melcous, and Netherzone: Graywalls (talk) 03:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Greghenderson2006, what evidence do you have that this material is WP:DUE for inclusion? The award itself is not notable, and he didn't even win the award. I looked at the source and there is no meaningful discussion about the award contained therein; the material is mentioned briefly in passing as a rather obscure trivial detail. To me, this looks like a textbook example of WP:CHERRYPICKING to push a particular point-of-view about the subject. Left guide (talk) 03:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Left guide: For a photographer being a finalist for the Ilford's International Cibachrome Award is a big thing. This information appeared in the Carmel Pine Cone and goes on to say that Boyer attracted national attention as a color photographer and was published in Camera 35 and Picture Magazine. He was also chosen as a photographer in Time Life book photography. It was orginally listed in the Infobox but was taken away by you. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Greghenderson2006: Do you have any sources to back your claim that being a finalist for the Ilford's International Cibachrome Award is a big thing? WP:DUE is assessed by the importance placed by sources, not by individual Wikipedia editors. And yes, I read those other details too, but the source doesn't connect them to the award, it mentions them distinctly and individually. For us to try to make such a connection ourselves when the source doesn't would be a WP:SYNTH violation. Left guide (talk) 04:24, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Jeff Wassmann was awarded the Ilford's inaugural International Cibachrome Awards, finalizing his move into photography. Danny Pope won the award in 1993. Greg Henderson (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Wassmann won the inaugural award, in 1981. I found one journal mention also for the 1981 award. The award had a few mentions in photography magazines in 1980-1982, mostly in advertisements for the sponsor, but a few legitimate mentions. Danny Pope is unusual with a 1993 date as I can find no other source that post-dates about 1982. I'm not sure Pope won the same award as was given in 1981, it might be something different. Overall, it looked like a short run competition with a high value prize amount, sponsored by the film maker, that had a lot of entrants, and Boyer placed well in the finalist category. -- GreenC 16:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC) GreenC 16:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Request edit for infobox

• Please add the following text to the infobox for awards:
  • "Finalist in Ilfochrome's Cibachrome National Awards"

Comment See my comment above in the edit request above this one. Graywalls (talk) 02:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Based on my comment in section right above, it's possible to unambiguously verify this competition/award ran only one year in the early 80s. Beyond that there are ambiguities. There is general disagreement on Wikipedia about inclusion of awards that are not well established. If some editors are going to dispute, it would probably require an RfC. Given the close attention to this article recently it likely wouldn't succeed. I recommend setting this aside a while and see if better sources appear. -- GreenC 04:32, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: No consensus could be obtained for making the requested change. Zippybonzo | talk | contribs (they/them) 19:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Request Edit - Intro

• Add to intro at end of paragraph:
  • Boyer has curated photographs of European landscapes, people, and architecture, and hosted gallery exhibitions. During the 1980s, he traveled the county, compiling photographs for his book American Roads.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 02:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Greghenderson2006, this is already in the first paragraph of the career section. Recommend wait for the AfD to conclude and getting the body settled, before crafting an expanded head section. -- GreenC 03:03, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Great, we can close this request. Greg Henderson (talk) 03:56, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Request Edit national attention

• Please add the following text under the Career section after the 2nd paragraph:
  • "Boyer attracted national attention as a color photographer when he was published in Camera 35 and Picture Magazine. He was also chosen as a Master Printer and photographer in the Time Life books on color photography.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 04:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Partially done Special:Diff/1200968906/1200976411. The text repeats Time Life books so I added more detail which book it is. I didn't add "attracted national attention" as that is too promotional sounding for this article, obviously Time Life books is national attention. I didn't include the magazines because they are not notable and it's unclear what was published how significant it was. -- GreenC 17:23, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your analysis and answering the edit request. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:54, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

First one-man show

• Add under Career section after the 1st paragraph:
  • "Boyer's first one-man show was at the Lakey Gallery, in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California in 1979."

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 04:43, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Added. Special:Diff/1200962828/1200968906 -- GreenC 16:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Request edit - permanent collections

• Add to Career section at the end of the last paragraph the following;
  • “Boyer's work is included in the online permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the Brooklyn Museum, the Corcoran Gallery of Art, and the Monterey Museum of Art.
  • Secondary source:
  • Primary sources:

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 06:49, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Added. Permanent collections are one of the primary ways we determine notability and this is recorded by a secondary source. -- GreenC 16:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Great! BTW, there is an error on the page: The named reference "Cone" was defined multiple times with different content. Please check it out. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Book: California Elegance

Special:Diff/1200763996/1200764396: User:Left guide the removal of this book is nonsensical. There is no policy that "a book is a primary about itself". The cited text says "Boyer is featured in the book", with the book cited, so readers can verify that Boyer is featured in the book, as described. There is no primary source. To clarify, if by "featured" we mean someone else writing about Boyer, it is not PRIMARY. If by featured that means Boyer's work is there, then it depends on how we word it, if its considered primary or not. I guess it's unclear what the word "featured" means. -- GreenC 16:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

That likely passes verifiability, although principle of due weight comes into play. When inclusion worthiness is contested, the burden to establish consensus for inclusion rests on the editor wishing to include the disputed content. Graywalls (talk) 17:24, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

GreenC, I think I mistakenly interpreted this as a book that Boyer co-wrote, based on the way the material was being presented in this article, thank you for correcting me. As a courtesy and out of fairness, I'll self-revert and restore the material. In any case, I'm fine with additional facts about Boyer from that book being included within reason. Left guide (talk) 23:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It fooled me also, I figured "featured in a book" meant he was written about, not a contributor. But it could be rightly interpreted as contributor also. The problem is the word "featured" which is vague language that should be avoided, it is endemic on Wikipedia. We have since learned it was written about, not contributor, so it's inclusion seems warranted with the addition of some fact from the book. -- GreenC 03:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Greghenderson2006: Looking at the book description at Google: [1] I don't see Boyer's name in the long list of people in the book. Do you have any information what "Featured" means? That's a loaded term often used to puff people up, is usually a red flag for promotionalism, you want to avoid using it unless it's like a cover article in a magazine, or a chapter-length coverage. It's also vague language that causes confusion, see above note regarding if this is a primary source or not. -- GreenC 16:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Boyer is sending me a copy of the pages in the book. It is a four page spread about Boyer. I'll provide details ASAP. It is interesting when an article comes up for WP:N, editors try to remove as much as they can. Now I am having to put in request edits to put stuff back in, e.g. Boyer's work is included in the online permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the Brooklyn Museum, the Corcoran Gallery of Art, and the Monterey Museum of Art. This is a key point because it shows WP:ARTIST as in the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. Greg Henderson (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for getting a copy. Worse case we cite facts about Boyer, as described in the book. Even if the article is being groomed for a possible AfD, any removed sources can be still be brought up during AfD as evidence of notability, they don't need to be used in the article. -- GreenC 17:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I got a copy, the chapter title is: "Winston and Kate Boyer, Transforming the Ordinary"

Opening paragraph: Carmel resident and fine arts photographer Winston Boyer has been known for his landscapes and surreal tableaux for decades. He had his first show in Carmel in the late 1970s, after which he traveled to Europe for three years as a sports photographer for European and American publications. At that time, he compiled photographs of European landscapes, peoples, and architecture, and began to have numerous exhibitions in both American and European galleries. During the 1980s, Winston traveled throughout the United States compiling photographs for a book, American Roads (1989).

It goes on to talk about his "Mask" series, permanent collections, etc. I can upload to Wikimedia or Internet Archieve if that would help. Greg Henderson (talk) 18:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Greghenderson2006, if you send me a copy via email that would be great. -- GreenC 03:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure, what is your email address? I did not see it on your user page. Greg Henderson (talk) 05:30, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@GreenC: I just sent you the full text from the article. Greg Henderson (talk) 16:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Book: California Elegance

• Please add the following setence that would go before the setence: "Boyer lives in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California, with his wife Kathleen."
  • "Boyer is featured in the book California Elegance Portraits from the Final Frontier, by Christine Suppes and Frederic Aranda published by Mondadori, released in March 2021. A quotation from the book states: "Carmel resident and fine arts photographer Winston Boyer has been known for his landscapes and surreal tableaux for decades." Greg Henderson (talk) 19:13, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Special:Diff/1201127126/1201191859 -- GreenC 03:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Undisclosed paid tag

@Graywalls: Why would you add a Undisclosed paid tag, when there is already a Paid contributions tag? You said that "the account Winston Swift Boyer comes highly suspicious based on edit pattern as, such as leaving editorial notes. Possible paid agent of the article subject."

I already have the paid contributions tag on both the talk page and on the article. I am not getting paid by Boyer. He is just an old high-school friend that I did a favor for in writing the article. No money has ever exchanged hands. He gave me a photo in exchange for the article. I don't understand why you are placing all these tags on a professional photographer's page when it has already been disclosed that I may have a COI. If notability is in question, then that is the only tag there should be on the page. Greg Henderson (talk) 23:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

This relates to edits by Matthew_Sloane_Swift (talk · contribs). My first edit which you mentioned can be disregarded. I reverted that edit and re-did the edit so I can re-write a correct edit summary. Graywalls (talk) 23:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls: In your revised edit you say: "User:Matthew Sloane Swift comes highly suspicious and a possible paid agent of the subject given the editorial comments and such leftr in article space in their edits."

I seriously doubt that a cousin of Boyer would be a paid agent. Just because he edits a page does not mean he is suspicious. Many of the edists are grammar corrections. What is the best way to get this tag off the page since I see no basis for it? Greg Henderson (talk) 00:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I made my educated guess on the editing pattern. I can't speculate their off-wiki personal relationship due to Wiki policies. Graywalls (talk) 01:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

A guess is a reason to place a tag on a page? What is the best way to get this tag off the page since I see no basis for it? Greg Henderson (talk) 01:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

This is why it says " may have been created or edited in return for undisclosed payments" rather than a definitive statement. The use of single purpose account, that was created shortly before this edit occurs/have no edits prior to edits on this article, and only make very insignificant or no other edits by itself raises a suspicion of vested interest editing. Graywalls (talk) 01:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Instead of debating over semantics and hypotheticals, what really needs to occur is an inspection and analysis of the edits in question. Are those edits compromising the neutrality of the article's current live version? If yes, then those issues should be addressed and fixed. If no, then the tag should be removed and there is nothing further to discuss regarding this matter. Left guide (talk) 01:33, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In any case, there is no deadline. Graywalls (talk) 01:36, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, I just checked their 6 edits, what is left, and don't see a problem. I'm going to remove the tag. Will you have a problem with that? Or do you prefer to keep the tag for .. what? -- GreenC 01:56, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request - Career

• Under Career section after the 1st paragraph, please add:
  • Boyer exhibited New Landscapes photographs with the Friends of Photography in 1980, at the Carmel's Sunset Center.

References

Greg Henderson (talk) 00:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the denial: Special:Diff/1201622410/1201640963. Since the notability of artists is frequently established by their exhibitions, they are important. The town is well known as a center of the arts, Carmel-by-the-Sea,_California#Arts_and_culture. It has national and international known artists. See the large list of Carmel-by-the-Sea,_California#Notable_people -- in a town of only 3,000 people. Not a typical small town. It is a famous Art colony .. there are other similar places where important artists congregate. So the "local" argument doesn't carry as much weight, in the same way a newspaper in Silicon Valley is not merely a "local" paper when it is covering nationally recognized companies like Facebook, Ebay and Google. -- GreenC 03:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with GreenC. Friends of Photography was a nonprofit organization started by Ansel Adams and others in 1967 to promote photography as a fine art. I think it is important that Boyer's article represents the kind of exhibitions and connections he has made in his career. Greg Henderson (talk) 06:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: in the cited source, Boyer's name is mentioned in passing in a list series of 14 names, so to include the proposed material is an extreme stretch of WP:DUE, beyond what is appropriate. If there was a paragraph (or even a few sentences) of meaningful discussion about Boyer in the source, I'd be inclined to support this request. Left guide (talk) 08:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

  Um.. we don't value sources based on word volume. That would be nonsensical and there is no policy or guideline that says the volume of words is the determining factor. Rather the value is the information. It's significance. So for example, if Boyer was on a reliably-sourced list that said he funded terrorists, would that be of significance for inclusion? BTW he is not, that's just an example to make the point. But I would think, we would include that information. Lists of names convey information. The question is the significance of the information. Not the volume of it. Sometimes it is merely passing mention, like they attended a meeting, etc.. but in this case it is an exhibition. Artist exhibitions are how artists create notability and how we determine notability. And he was in his early 20s I think at the time, so it would have been more important at that point in his career. -- GreenC 15:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)