Talk:William Moulton Marston

Details of the contract

Due to shrewd contract negotiations, Marston may be the first comic book creator to have gained significant royalty rights from a major comic book publisher. (It took a highly publicized lawsuit in 1975 for Siegel & Shuster to gain creator rights of Superman from DC Comics.) Negotiated before his death in 1947, his heirs retain small royalties from all Wonder Woman related creations and merchandise. Also there is a reversion of rights clause that states if DC Comics does not publish for one month any Wonder Woman comic book, the rights to the Wonder Woman character and related merchandise, past, current, and future revert to his family. Effectively, this means that if DC Comics became so poor that they could only publish one comic book a month, it would have to be Wonder Woman, or else they would lose her to Marston's family. Presumably though, this has been extended to the creation and distribution of other Wonder Woman merchandise.

I don't think anyone denies Marston got the best deal of any of the major characters' creators - it's surely no coincidence that he was the only one who was an established author and older than the rest (and perhaps this should be explicitly acknowledged here). However the contract seems more convoluted. Other versions I've read state that it was at least 4 times a year - which is more in line with the frequency of DC's titles back then. Also there seems to be some evidence that DC have since brought the character outright - see the last on this page. Does anyone know both the original and current state of play? Timrollpickering July 1, 2005 10:14 (UTC)

Olive's Surname

The article says her surname was Richard, while the Bostonian article (External links) says it was Byrne. Or did she mary someone pro-forma? --18:32, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

AFAICT, 'Richard' was a pen-name. Earlier versions of this article identified her as "Olive Byrne (used pseudonym Olive Richard)" but that seems to have been accidentally deleted in an edit, leaving mentions of both "Olive Byrne" and "Olive Richard" without explaining that they're the same person. I'll fix it. --Calair 22:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Addendum - I wouldn't be at all surprised if the purpose of the pseudonym was to obscure the relationship between them. Looking at the link I just added, 'Richard' certainly didn't want her readers to know that she was living with Marston and that her sons were also his; publishing as 'Byrne' might have made it easier for people to join the dots. From some of the other articles, it looks like they were out to friends, but the world at large might've been a different matter. --Calair 22:31, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Personal Life and Political Views

Should there be a separate section on Martsons personal life and political views? Theres discussion of his radical feminism but maybe it should be in its own section. Also I think theres some relevance to mentioning Marstons personal interest in bondage as well as his bigamous relationship (he lived with both his wife and his mistress). Certainly bondage was a big theme in early Wonder Woman stories and Marstons interest in it as a sexual practice lends some added dimension to his inclusion of it.

The article does already acknowledge William's relationship with Elizabeth and Olive ("...lived with the couple in a polyamorous relationship"), although I've added another mention so this is made clear from the first mention of Olive. But more information about his personal life wouldn't hurt, particularly since it does seem to have had a lot of bearing on his work.

(I was just reading through some of Marston's WW stories, and... yeah. Were there any that didn't involve tying people up and/or spanking them?) --Calair 01:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

DISC assessment & DISC

This DISC assessment & DISC articles are crammed full of linkspam - basically it's an ongoing war between different companies who revert each others linkspam. I have no idea about this topic, so can't really know how to write a good article on the subject, but it strikes me that people who edit this page might be able to go over there and help out. Richard W.M. Jones 08:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Best of Wikipedia

This article was listed yesterday on tumblr.com as part of the "The Best of Wikipedia". [1] Well done! --GentlemanGhost (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Re Dr.Moultons childrens from both mates

Understand that wife and mistress Dr.Moulton relationship(Think Harlan Sanders yes that Col Harlan Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken Fame! Also had a wife and a mistresss in the same house!!) But nothing is said of the kids of Dr.Moultons "mates"wife and mistress and Dr.Moultons of course. Any still alive what happened to them? Teslaedsonfan (talk) 22:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

References for feminism

The article categories and text currently dub him a "feminist psychologist", "feminist theorist", "feminist writer" and "male feminist". Could we get some references and discussion regarding why he's being called this into the article? The root of feminist/feminism (search 'femin' for ease) only appears in a couple statements:

Marston posited that there is a masculine notion of freedom that is inherently anarchic and violent and an opposing feminine notion based on "Love Allure" that leads to an ideal state of submission to loving authority.

In a 1943 issue of "The American Scholar", Marston wrote: "Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don't want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women's strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman."

Do we have any stronger evidence to associate him with the term feminism? For example, a reference where he names himself a feminist, or scholarly works where experts describe him as one? All I can see here is him discussing feminine things, which may be more related to femininism than feminism. Ranze (talk) 18:23, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Note No. 5

The citation for note No. 5 is correct. I just want to mention that the article was written on June 30, 2008 - based on the first paragraph where author Rick Flavin mentioned that it's the last day of June and referred to the Democratic Convention in Colorado which is archived in Wikipedia, see <https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=2008_Democratic_National_Convention&oldid=740163677>.

The citation should retain "n.d." The date - June 30, 2008 - may also be included in the citation but placed in square brackets [].

Thanks. Trevz (talk) 13:41, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Religion

An anonymous user user:71.179.129.217 added a category labeling Martson as Jewish. However, according to Did Jew Know?: A Handy Primer on the Customs, Culture & Practice of the Chosen People[2] and Wonder Woman: Bondage and Feminism in the Marston/Peter Comics, 1941-1948 [3] Marston was one of the few early superhero writers who was not. Chris vLS (talk) 05:44, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

yo, fanboys:

Why does one of the Notes refer to William Moulton Marsters? Is he somehow a relation to Marston?
Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s a good question. ELSchissel (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Films

According to Lepore (chapter 17), Marston also was employed in Hollywood for several years after being effectively blacklisted from academia. ELSchissel (talk) 18:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Olive Byrne's year of death

Olive and Elizabeth's pages state that Olive passed away in 1985, at age 81; this one states 1990, age 86, sourcing Jill Lepore's book. I'm not wild about the other sources for her age (one being find a grave), and I don't have the book to check it. The 2017 film on the three states 1985 as well. Can anyone confirm a date of death for Olive Byrne?

Trickycrayon (talk) 02:28, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikitree, Findagrave (which doesn’t offer a photo of her gravestone) also give 1990 it’s true. How about contemporary obits? ELSchissel (talk) 14:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1990/05/22/obituaries/ ELSchissel (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I hadn't been able to find one when I looked - thank you. I suppose it's the other pages that need updating, then... Trickycrayon (talk) 18:05, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

And now I see you've already done it, thank you ELSchissel! I probably would've had to start with a Talk page entry anyway since I'm a bit shy to make such significant edits. Trickycrayon (talk) 18:08, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Partner vs mistress/lover...

I think the term 'partner' for Olive Byrne is confusing and a poor choice of words. Would not mistress be the usual term? Partner in its common use wrt personal relationships is for one member of a couple, or in business ventures, where interpersonal involvements are not in consideration at all. We have a number of words suited already to the role Byrne played as a party to the relationship, if not mistress, perhaps if the relationship was three-way rather than a pair of two-way relationships, then would lover be more suitable? Is it that the article avoids mistress due to the bondage/discipline context implied by that word, and is that avoidance due to prudishness, or because of the potential for confusion? If there is a basis for using partner in this way, please point it out, I am certainly not expert in these topics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44b8:4146:600:3492:c3ef:ae65:dfe0 (talk) 13:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Update: I finished the movie. Even 'polyamorous life-partner' is not a good description, if the film is anything to go by, because it would equally apply if Olive had yet more partners, beyond the couple, which the film certainly does not portray (except for the inconvenient and confusing beginning of their relationship, when she was dishonestly involved with a man who she did not love, ie a relationship held for reasons contradictory to the term polyamorous anyway). I'm not sure, apart from mistress, what 'conventional' relationship description would fit, other than some complex aggregate such as 'live-in mistress and lover of Professor Morton and his wife'. It's particularly problematic where the phrase used is something like 'his partner', since she was partner to Elizabeth for many years after his death. Clearly at least the adjustment to 'their partner' or 'partner to he and his wife, Elizabeth' should be adopted. One would normally expect to see something like 'and mother to X number of his children'.

I will leave it for others to find the right terms to use, but please accept my note that the terms used on the page seem misrepresentative, in particular the attempt at a one-word catch-all in the infobox. I didn't read the article, because of this problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44b8:4146:600:3492:c3ef:ae65:dfe0 (talk) 15:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: The Lepore book makes some speculations which have been denied by the family of Dr. Marston, in particular that Elizabeth and Olive were both lovers, rather than both being the lovers of Dr. Marston, which is an important distinction. There is no question that they were a family together (even after Dr. Marston's death), however, or that Elizabeth and Olive were involved with Dr. Marston. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.192.77.59 (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The nature of the relationship between Olive Byrne and Elizabeth Marston

The claim that it was sexual appears to be disputed and based on circumstantial evidence, and this should arguably be reflected in the articles about them. See my comment on the Elizabeth Marston talk page for sources. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 08:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)