Talk:Whoonga

Scientists have shown that there are no ARVs in Whoonga

This article refers to two established scientists who have actually tested samples of 'Whoonga,' and have found no ARVs. It also includes quotes from SA government spokespeople, who say that the ARV link to Whoonga is an invention of the media, or at least a myth that is being perpetuated by the media.

http://www.plusnews.org/report.aspx?Reportid=91880

Can someone please add this information to the main article? It's important that the "Whoonga has ARVs" myth be debunked.

Let us remember that whoonga, whatever it is, is most certainly not a standardized product. Anyone producing illegal drugs who learns that some addicts are turning to a product called "whoonga" might well decide to start producing something or other and start pushing it as "whoonga" without worrying about whether it has anything in common whatsoever with the product someone else is producing. It's not a regulated market, gang! So, the fact that a particular sample of something that someone called "whoonga" has one set of ingredients doesn't mean that what someone else is calling "whoonga" might not have a quite different set of ingredients. It may be like gumbo--lots of cooks make it lots of different ways, but everybody calls it the same thing.

Also, let's remember that just because a whoonga producer puts in Ingredient X doesn't mean that Ingredient X is the source of the addictive action of the drug. Just because a South African police official dismisses it as "merely heroin" doesn't mean it isn't just as dangerous and just as destructive to addict's lives as ever. Poihths (talk) 22:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

---

As I am sure is obvious, I am not experienced at creating Wikipedia articles. Given the importance of this subject as a new threat in the world of addictive drugs and as a new obstacle to HIV treatment, I hope others will contribute material and formatting to advance and improve the material.

The searchbot seems to have decided that an article about the revenue streams of the World Cup has been copied in this article about addictive drugs. I think the searchbot needs work.

the canadian news broadcast (already in the article) contains similar information, I will rewrite the article somewhat in the next days based on those 2 sources.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Fake?

I can only find a very small handful of reports about it. A news report here, a website there. All with the same info. And nothing official, such as a south African govt. or UN press release. I feel we should delete this, as it seems to be a hoax, similar to the jenkem in america reports. Theres also no report of an active ingredient, which would be something a rehab clinic would have to know in order to combat addiction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.140.51 (talk) 22:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

And you'll notice the reports tend to largely be duplicates of each other rather than containing any genuine investigative material. A lot of wild claims and references to alleged experts, but very short of verifiable facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.206.216.6 (talk) 06:08, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately not a fake.

The reason why this is not widely reported is that it is a new phenomenon. AS for the alleged lack of report of active ingredients, the poster has not understood the material; the ingredients are clearly identified. The references supplied are to published reports by solid news organizations, not fly-by-night blog entries or free-floating email chains. In my opinion, the preceding anonymous accusation that this story is a fake is injurious to truth and should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poihths (talk • contribs) 15:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

No reason to delete anything. The fake suspicion was a valid question at the time and not an insult or harmful to the project, hence there is nothing to delete. In the mean time the sourcing has been improved somewhat, so that the fake concerns have been resolved. However it still might desirable to add academic medical sources over time, once they become available to anybody here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually still valid. A newspaper is not a valid source of scientific verification. They regularly misrepresent or exaggerate. The article itself should note that much of it is based on news reports and not verified information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.206.216.6 (talk) 05:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Whoonga is obviously not fake (i.e. the claim is not valid) and that is of course verified (you don't need a scientific publication to confirm that there's a drug dubbed whoonga in SA). What is subject to debate is the exact nature of whoonga and whether whoonga is a fake in the sense of not being a new drug. However that is different from being a fake in WP. A fake in WP means somebody invented something in WP, but a WP article about a (real world) fake is not fake (in WP). And the news reports show us that "whoonga" was obviously not an invention by a WP editor. The fact that whoonga fakes to be a new drug is a fact that belongs the WP article, but it doesn't make the WP article a fake itself.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Not fake.

The drug is not fake it is there in the Townships, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal. I may not know all the scientific details but I that more and more people are starting to use it now. If you want know more about the drug. The government has not done anything yet, and they won’t do anything until it’s too late. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sibusiso87rn (talk • contribs) 07:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

We do not need this

Whoonga lies

But still no truth.

About those ARVs are they Entry/fusion inhibitors, Reverse transcriptase inhibitors (RTIs), Integrase inhibitors, Maturation inhibitors, Protease Inhibitors (PI) or Combined formulations like Combivir, Atripla, Trizivir, Truvada, Kaletra or Epzicom?

With regard to the household detergents are they Anionic detergents, Cationic detergents, Ethoxylates or Non-ionic (or zwitterionic) detergents?

Because these people

http://www.whoonga.za.org/ whose bullshit tour is now going to make some stops

wikipedia, aljazeera, etv, sabc

would have us believe thus:

"Whoonga is a new killer drug that has hit South Africa...

The Drug is designed to keep you hooked and addicted to it; one smoke is all it takes..."

OH MY GOD! What happened to reality?

Household Detergents are addictive? I thought they were designed to clean...

ARVs are addictive? I thought they were designed to slow replication...

Rat_poison is addictive? I thought it was designed to kill rats...

Their chemical composition and efficacy changes when combusted and added in a designed fashion to turn you into an addict?

No Come on! pull the other leg...

I make my point once more.

These things: rat poison, household detergents, ARVs are merely bulking agents[cut with not MADE with] - what is the addictive part?

Whoonga is an addictive recreational drug...

What is the most addictive drug on the scale? http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Drug_danger_and_dependence.png http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg

Is it IN RED? Is it household detergents? Is it ARVs? Is it rat_poison?

If you insist on continuing this deviancy amplification spiral with bullshit, and not mention that RED LETTER Word.

Let me at least spell it out for you;

That thing; that thing that is almost instantly addictive, that substance… is Heroin. [Please tell the truth about drugs; always]

Tell me what does this sound like to you?

Withdrawal symptoms reportedly involve both craving and pain, which are temporarily relieved by fresh doses of the drug.

yup that must be the ARV's HIV patients often claim withdrawal, so do housewives when they haven't touched household detergents for a week, rat-poison well that's a hard one to give up...

COME ON - the OP ed removed the drug / harm scale because this new drug isn't on there?

Local Etymology suggests that Whoonga is Unga,Ungah, Umga and from the [withdrawal] symptoms and instant addiction honestly makes it seem like the main ingredient is Heroin and the rest of the reported ingredients are bulking agents... no more

--Kmhkmh - I expect those medical records will start becoming apparent, if what I suspect is Heroin, in a year or so when Heroin addicted babies start being born

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.27.186.138 (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Nobody, in particular not this article claims that detergents or rat poison are addictive by themselves. The claim is that whoonga is addictive (for whatever reasons) and that's based on news reports.

Whatever you you want to add here needs to be sourced. What your personal "logic dictates" has no place in the article since it is your personal opinion and without sources that has in particular due to WP:NPOV and WP:OR no place in WP. Nevermind the fact that strictly speaking your logic is not quite accurate either (it is not always that easy to predict the effects of mixed/combined chemical substances).

Having said I agree that some skepticism towards those (preliminary) new reports is surely warranted, nevertheless personal skepticism doesn't suffice as a base for added conntent, you need sources.

As far as your graphic was concerned, I removed that because whoonga is not on it and that marihuana might be the (only) addictive compment of that odd whoonga mix is pure speculation, i.e. that graphic can be used in articles about heroine, marihunana, mescalin, etc., i.e. for all those drugs that are actually on it, but not here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

OK WP:NPOV I get it.

The News reporting on this drug certainly is not asking the right questions. In South Africa it is particularly bad, all following the same theme and this is my concern. Fact, truth and of course scientific evidence is lacking. No one so far has even seized and tested 'whoonga'.

No Chemist, Medical Control Council official, Drug researcher, Drug policy official, forensics official or anyone outside of a nurse reporting on ARV theft has actually spoken on whoonga, however the Deviancy amplification spiral continues.

I don't know what logic has to say about the ability of the uneducated rural / township person's ability to chemically concoct / invent an 'addictive recreational drug' Whoonga, with household detergents, rat poison and ARVs.

You will also note that the NEWS reporting is following the http://www.whoonga.za.org/ spin. Again there is no local SA TV NEWS coverage available on youtube to show my point.

Also it would be good to note Whoonga had not made local news till 17 November 2010. Unga has been around since 2008. There are 11 Languages of South Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.31.241.164 (talk) 06:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The article is currently not claiming any scientific facts regarding the drug, it merely reports the preliminary use about (what it is, where it is used and what effects are reported) - not more not less. Once detailed medical studies and analysis' become available their result can be added. I'm gettung the impression you are reading more into the article than it actually claims.--Kmhkmh (talk) 07:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I need to correct myself as to when the whoonga story first made the press it was in fact 26 October 2010; however in my defense etv NEWS still reported the drug in question as sugars till 17 November 2010. My interest in this story started when I noticed the drug changed 3 days into reporting on the incident.

I have tried to back trace the beginning of the Deviancy amplification spiral and drug reporting in the Shongweni incident.

26 October 2010 Daily Sun reports Sugars a mixture of cocaine and dagga [cannabis] as the drug in question. 27 October 2010 TimesLive reports Whoonga as the drug in question 28 November 2010 IOL reports on the name change; The National police Commissioner General Bheki Cele joins the arguments with the Hawks and drug experts

Experts say whoonga is just a new name for sugars.

“We discovered about a year ago that the sugars drug had its name changed. Whoonga is not a new drug; it is sugars being sold under a different name, a rebranding,” said Dr Anwar Jeewa, a drug expert and head of the Minds Alive drug rehabilitation centre.

“There has been a lot of confusion recently, with some saying that whoonga is anti-retroviral medication crushed and smoked in a dagga joint.”

“The media has made a fuss about the new drug on the streets, panicking people and worrying the government. But it’s not new,” the SAPS’s Colonel Jay Naicker said.

Idris*, a former drug dealer, confirmed this. “Whoonga is sugars. It’s the same thing, just a different name,” he said.

While a typical whoonga concoction includes brown heroin, rat poison and ammonia, some distributors are now said to be adding tik, or methamphetamine, to the mix.

“The drug dealers add all sorts of stuff to the heroin, the primary ingredient, just to increase the mass of the drug when it’s sold and make the heroin go further. A lot of the stuff has no effect and users have no idea what’s going in,” said a member of the police’s Organised Crime Unit. - IOL - Whoonga Whammy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.30.213.191 (talk) 20:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The NEWS however is still in the Deviancy amplification spiral —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.30.213.191 (talk) 21:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Those reports - reporting only dagga as the base drug, are questionable. The only reason dagga is used to smoke it, is because it is cheaper than cigarettes. Kinda like arguing that heroin was used to bulk the washing powder, and ARVs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.30.102.221 (talk) 16:29, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Alright the IOL article is a useful source and valuable addition to the article. With that you can source most of the claim you wanted to integrate into the article.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

New edit is continuing the lie.

--41.30.102.221 (talk) 16:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

No one questions what dagga is. It is by no means the base / primary drug of whoonga.

The primary Ingredient as confirmed by the South African Police Service is HEROIN.

please can we discuss this obvious lie.

when you buy Whoonga on the street you don't get dagga with it, or mixed in the R20 - R30 hit, or part of the same straw that delivers whoonga

You need to dial it down a notch. There is no lie in the article but it just summarizes the press reports. If you read it carefully then you'll see that it doesn't really contradict your point of view anyway.

Also please get yourself familiar with the style guide (WP:MOS). Bold print is usually only used for the subject's name and not for arbitrary text pieces in the article. External sources are not directly linked in the article text, but placed in the form of footnotes or listed in the references section. Similarly explanatory notes to article's content do belong into footnotes.

--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Great with wiki's rules - great with wiki. This argument means nothing to the man on whoonga, or the 14 yr old raped girl, or the dead.

My concern is; dagga / cannabis / marijuana is a plant. We all know what that is. It is not sold as part of or part of the concoction of whoonga.

This line: Some reports mention only dagga (marihuana) as the base drug.

Is a lie!

Whoonga does not have dagga in it's chemical composition - am I not getting this through. The brown white powder has no dagga in it when bought from the dealer.

A correct version of that line would read: Some reports only mention ARVs as the base drug, also stating that Whoonga is smoked with dagga.

I don't think it arbitrary that the giraffe is being identified as an elephant based on a foreign journalists sensationalist piece focusing on one user, then summarized to a point that it now forms PART of the drug.

Yet the SAPS statement gets less weight although it contains all the truth.

Whoonga is Heroin. Cut with; not made with... arvs rat poison detergents. Smoked with; not made with dagga

so when wiki says - dagga is a base drug of whoonga. Then I claim it is a further misrepresentation of the truth, a lie, regarding a drug that by no misunderstanding is having a terrible effect on our society.

It is unscientific to combine two drugs into one then ascribe the effects of the one on the other, South Africa has suffered this more than once. Note how Agriculture research by ARC gets confused between a plant they are researching and Methaqualone

If I'm going game hunting I want to correctly identify the predators and not shoot the giraffe when the lion is on my back.

Misidentification of this drug has misdirected the fight against it. 41.26.89.101 (talk) 04:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

I'll try... learn but I can't assume good faith wrt whoonga; the implications are too great 41.26.89.101 (talk) 04:46, 7 December 2010 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

This is an encyclopedic article and not website or information sheet for an antidrug campaign. That some sources only mention dagga is not a lie, but a fact (read those sources, it's all in the article). That doesn't mean that those sources are correct, which is explained in our article as well. However at this stage with the given sources I don't think we shouldn't make any strong claims that are not supported by the sources overall yet, in particular since the exact ingredients of whoonga seemed to be somewhat of a moving target. I agree that heroin looks like the most likely scenario to explain the claimed addictive properties, however crystal meth which seems to added as well in some cases at least can cause a similar addiction.

In any case we have to stick with what the sources here. When we get newer more reliable/reputable sources providing an in depth medical analysis of the drug then we can add that and probably drop "false" information from preliminary news reports. Ideally such more reoutable sources would be some academic/scientific publications, but so far all sources are just articles from news outlets without any real in depth analysis and I see no good reason to restrict the article's content to the information given by a particular news outlet.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK - I did read those articles, (and in the Aljezeera report you see the user add the Whoonga to the dagga, clearly they are two different things one is a powder the other vegetable matter)the other article is very clear "addicts used dagga as a base, which was mixed with whoonga into a cigarette and smoked". That is very different to dagga being the base drug of whoonga. The one reflects the method of consumption; the summary implies that Whoonga is made of dagga and other ingredients. Which is NOT what those reports describe. thanx for engaging the topic Kmhkmh 41.30.132.111 (talk) 05:50, 7 December 2010 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

Actually if you read all sources carefully, you'll see that there even more than those 2 that only mention dagga (as the only known traditional drug in the mix) and while the al jazeera report shows a user putting powder on a dagga and then rolling into a cigarette, the reporter explicitly says, that whoonga is a mix of dagga, rat poison, detergents and aids medication.

As I said I agree that heroin the most likely base ingredient and the IOL article probably the most accurate, it is however at this point not what all the sources say and that's exactly why I chose the description as given in the article.

Also you can get from the sources, that the term whoonga is used in a somewhat imprecise manner. Some sources/people call whoonga the final joint and whatever is in it (i.e. powder + dagga) while others call only the powder whoonga and consider the joint as a mix of dagga and whoonga.

--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:17, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I know you see the light Kmhkmh, Whoonga doesn't grow on a tree, and thank you again for engaging. 41.30.152.38 (talk) 17:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

In coercion

At the end point of the Shongweni massacre, the man involved says the police coerced him into a confession. Although he has still not been charged. The other two accomplices were shot dead by the police, and there has been no mention of Whoonga. 41.28.50.144 (talk) 06:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

Help I can't continue this lie it's against my POV

I can't edit this in; it would kill me

the department of health issuing a statement saying "Whoonga is a highly addictive mixture containing stocrin, dagga, Strepsils and rat poison." - Politicsweb

Now an OTC throat lozenger is addictive? Dagga part of the concoction and from the health horses mouth; I'm sorry it's beyond me to edit this crap in. 41.26.192.239 (talk) 21:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

Why Wiki has to get it right

Soweto men caught selling new Aids dope:

Whoonga, according to online encyclopaedia Wikipedia, is a mixture of antiretroviral medicine, drugs such as heroin or dagga, powdered detergent and rat poison. - Sowetan

and a new name: nyaope - a lethal mixture of heroine and dagga.

I have no idea how to add this - or to put it in context. 41.29.152.135 (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

It is already in the text, there's no need for adding redundant sources. Additional sources are only needed if they provide new information or if they are considered (significantly) more reliable/reputable than the old ones.

Also it doesn't make sense to include every single whoonga related incident or drug bust, i.e. the article should concentrate to summarizes the most important knowledge about whoonga (things like: what is it made of, effects of its use on society or individuals, distribution/availability)--Kmhkmh (talk) 17:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The 1st one is only relevant because it's comes from the department of health; strepsils is a new addition and from such a source I thought it might be relevant. Nayope which from my perspective is the same as sugars,Whoonga,Umya and Unga - Heroin smoked with dagga. This is the bit I don't know how to marry. 41.30.171.19 (talk) 09:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

Durban - The notorious township drug, whoonga, does not contain anti-retroviral drugs, says President Jacob Zuma.

"Perpetuating such inaccuracies is dangerous as it may make drug addicts steal ARVs, which would put the lives of people on treatment at risk," said Zuma at the opening of the second biennial summit on substance abuse.

Many people believe whoonga is made of crushed HIV treatment drugs, mixed with other chemicals, but according to experts at the University of KwaZulu-Natal, whoonga does not contain ARVs, but is made up of heroin mixed with rat poison and other chemicals. 7thSpace 24.130.82.128 (talk) 15:48, 15 March 2011 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

No offense but Zuma is the last person I'd quote in particular on a subject related to Aids---Kmhkmh (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

touché 24.130.82.128 (talk) 16:51, 16 March 2011 (UTC)WhoongaISheroin

It would be very, very useful if those who wish to deny that whoonga exists, or who wish to deny reports of what it is made of, or wish to deny whatever else they wish to deny, would do so using normal Wikipedia standards: namely, presentation of verifiable information, specific verifiable references that support their point of view. Very few of the so-called contributions to this talk page do so; most consist of nothing by argumentation from doubt, or even just pure rant. Let's ratchet it up a notch.

Poihths (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean, everything in the article is attributed to sources (according to WP standards) often to several. There are also various sources mentioned on the discussion page here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 07:13, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Nyaope is not called 'whoonga'

Whoonga is another type of drug and is not slang for nyaope. Nyaope and whoonga are two different types of drugs, they are not the same. Tembinkosi (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

University of KwaZulu-Natal

Admittedly I haven't read all 199 pages carefully, but, the 2019 document says 4% of users "Bluetooth" and get high, and 7% of whooga is cut with antiviral medication.

7.6 million Africans take antiviral medicines, it is not implausible that they get taken in a cocktail.

Please be considerate when deleting facts that may save another human being's life.

Thank you. 49.184.195.195 (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2022 (UTC)