Talk:White Plains, New York/Archives/2020

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Climate Edit

@CaradhrasAiguo: I modified your edit slightly for accuracy, I don't believe the edit you changed was vandalism. White Plans still falls within the Humid Subtropical Koppen Climate Classification, with cold and wet winters with occasional snow that melts pretty quickly (essentially very similar to NYC weather, given the proximity). Here's a map for reference, the Humid Continental climate classification doesn't start until you're a ways north of White Plains: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/New_York_K%C3%B6ppen.svg/1920px-New_York_K%C3%B6ppen.svg.png

Also, the "25 days where it doesn't rise above freezing" statement definitely doesn't appear to be accurate either, going back through years of climate chart data, it definitely appears to be ~10 days per winter where temperatures don't rise above freezing. The average January temperature over the last 10 years also averages out to 30* F.

TechAtlas (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@TechAtlas:. 1) There is little point to quibbling over the 0 °C or −3 °C isotherm for the Köppen. And yes, any fumbling of numbers, as the IP did, to make a northern [inner-]suburban location have warmer minima than Central Park, is vandalism. 2) Per WP:V, it doesn't matter what one views the January average to work out to in the past 10 years, the normal as given by both sources is 28.3 °F. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 16:39, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@CaradhrasAiguo: White Plains is pretty firmly still in the humid subtropical area, if it falls on either end of the spectrum, it's humid subtropical, not continental. "Moderately snowy" is not an accurate description whatsoever either, given snow is not a frequent weekly event or anything, and when it does snow it melts quickly. There is also no "normal" for average temperatures given climate changes over extended periods of time, I double checked the average temperature straight from the NOAA source for White Plains and over the last 10 it is 30, over the last 20 29.7. Therefore my edit is definitely closer to the accurate, up to date climate. "Homefacts.com" or other sources like that are frequently unreliable and/or out of date, they often work by simply scraping databases and aren't checked over by humans. RE:Vandalism, they may have gotten that specific data point wrong, but inadvertently citing the wrong datapoint deep in an article is a very, very far cry from active, malicious vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TechAtlas (talk • contribs) 17:15 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@TechAtlas: 1) Not interested in further "discussing" the Köppen, you can feel free to cite a WP:RS for the classification. 2) There is also no "normal" for average temperatures given climate changes over extended periods of time This is a hilariously bad red herring. Any explanation why the WMO, countless national meteorological bodies, and not to mention print WP:RS (WaPo 1, WaPo 2, WaPo 3, WaPo 4), rely on the most recent 30-year normal? 3) "Wrong datapoint" is hardly an explanation for altering dozens of data points, as well as the normal minima being inexplicably warmer than {{New York City weatherbox}}. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 17:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@CaradhrasAiguo: You're engaging in an edit war, leaving condescending warning messages on people's pages when you're the one instigating an edit war is not a good look nor the proper way to go about coming to a consensus, whether you have 5 edits or 500,000. Please take a look at the Dispute Resolution guidelines if you're unaware of the process. I will concede the average temperature point, as I was unaware of the 30 yr average serving as the standard, so thanks for citing a source on that.

As for Koppen, you're the one who initiated the edit to continental and the other inaccurate descriptive changes (the page was accurately described as subtropical long before you changed it, if it was clearly continental someone would also have flagged it long ago), therefore the onus is on you to properly cite and justify your change with a source. I've already shown that the general consensus leans towards humid subtropical, not humid continental, whether in maps or other informal sources (1 2). Arbitrarily changing it to continental just because you "feel" like it belongs in continental without citing any sources whatsoever, when the general consensus on NYC, Long Island, and the near suburbs is firmly in subtropical, is not an appropriate way to edit a page. I'm leaving the average temperature but reverting the other edits to more accurately describe the area. Visit the area in January or talk to anyone living there, "wet and cold" is a significantly more accurate descriptor for NYC and the near suburbs like WP, you would definitely not describe it as a snowy place beyond occasional snow, just like the rest of the east coast south of MA. This is especially true in the last few decades given warmer winters as a result of climate change. If you can cite a reliable source for the humid continental classification and 25 days without rising above freezing (this one especially seems egregiously incorrect from the NOAA data I checked in the source), I'll be happy to accept these changes, otherwise please leave this section as it has accurately been for a while now. If you are unable to cite any reliable source for these changes and still, for whatever reason, insist you are correct, then please post to Third Opinion or another form of dispute resolution before making any further changes, rather than continuing the edit war, else you may be subject to the same blocking of edit privileges that you ironically tried to warn me about. It appears you've already been warned for edit warring before, a second strike is probably not a good thing for you edit privileges. TechAtlas (talk) 19:34, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:V is a core policy, and your failure to properly explain your calculations is inexcusable.

Dispense with the sanctimonious lecturing and the immense anecdotal wall of text. Your general consensus on NYC, Long Island, and the near suburbs is firmly in subtropical is not backed by any talk page discussions, as New_York_City#Climate has for years described The suburbs to the immediate north and west lie in the transitional zone between humid subtropical and humid continental climates (Dfa). If you cannot be compelled to check the source cited (which lists 258S, or 25.8 days annually, under the parameter ann-tmax-avgnds-lsth032) when reverting, perhaps you should not claim any modicum of competence. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 19:50, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@CaradhrasAiguo: Erm, how about we dispense with the insults and moral grandstanding first and foremost? It demolishes your credibility especially given you've been warned for this type of stuff before, I've been nothing but cordial here from the beginning, trying to get the most accurate description for this section of the page. You might want to actually review :WP:V yourself, the other sources I gave would likely fall under reliable enough for inclusion, given "Homefacts.com" is also cited for other stuff compared to well...literally no cited sources whatsoever for you change to continental. Which makes trying to lecture over competence entirely hollow, given that there was no source there whatsoever before you arrived and you did not specifically reference the new source you later added, hence why I assumed it pulled from one of the other various NOAA source that was there before you arrived.

Nonetheless, as I initially was doubtful of the Homefacts source, I'm also fine with removing that whole section entirely as you did, unless there is a more accurate source to pull from. Removing the climate classification altogether is suitable, as you said there isn't a definitive classification either way, however the descriptor should remain as it was, given the above explanation as to why "moderately snowy" isn't accurate. TechAtlas (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I will "dispense of" nothing, and I made no appeal to morals, mind the projection and aspersion-casting. WP:TLDR anecdotes in a "non-dispute" over hard numbers is anything but cordial. Your assessment of no cited sources whatsoever is beyond-the-pale incorrect, given the last version before your first unexplained edit here, as well as explicit mention of the .TXT source in this edit summary of mine; there was no ambiguity there was only one .TXT source cited in the whole Climate section.

something interesting about this city's climate

White Plains could've been a candidate for the Csa climate type if there were just slightly less days of precipitation and with that slightly less precipitation amount during summer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.113.203.160 (talk) 17:15, 7 October 2020 (UTC)