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Re-wrote for greater accuracy AND added many citations

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I removed the box stating that citations were required. There are many now. Peter K Burian (talk) 18:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt this article will ever get higher than Start level; it never was even a village and it now has only a single business (B&B) and a bunch of houses, aside from the bridge which is a tourist attraction. There is no way to turn this into a lengthy article like the one about Cambridge, Ontario, for example. Peter K Burian (talk) 18:06, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Photo of St. Jacobs - Need help to avoid Edit War

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An editor added a photo with the caption "Mennonite buggy in nearby St. Jaccobs, Ontario". I removed the photo because this article already has more than enough photos; it doesn't need photos taken in other communities as well. The editor reverted my edit. The input of other editors would be appreciated. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 03:04, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677 You and I seem to be the only users working on this article and we have done a great job improving it. I doubt we will get any interest from others about our disagreement. But yes to avoid an edit war we do need some guidance here.
Should the photo of the Mennonite buggy be deleted? Your posted reason for the delete of the photo was It was taken in St. Jacobs, not West Montrose.
I know someone who can cut through all this in 30 seconds. @Ferret, can you help us decide whether the Mennonite buggy photo is 1) Unsuitable because it was taken a few km away from the tiny settlement of West Montrose or 2) Unnecessary, although the article really does discuss the Mennonites in the area. 3)Or fine as is. (I live near West Montrose and I often see Mennonites exactly like this all around the area. This entire township is covered with Mennonite farms)
Note: The lead says: The Grand River flows through West Montrose. Together with nearby St. Jacobs and Elmira, West Montrose lies in the centre of an area of Waterloo County with a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites Peter K Burian (talk) 13:29, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I find the photo an acceptable addition to the article, relevant to the content.Tunborough (talk) 19:10, 5 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about the photo of the buggy

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This discussion did not achieve consensus, though Peter K Burian compromised and removed the image of the buggy. This RfC is therefore procedurally closed. Deryck C. 17:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the photo of a Mennonite buggy taken in a town 12 km away be included in this article? Magnolia677 (talk) 20:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey/vote

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  • Yes- As per the previous Talk Topic. Check the West Montrose Covered Bridge article. Who commissioned the bridge?A man from St. Jacobs. And while the person who took the photo says St. Jacob's it was clearly taken on a county road, NOT in St. Jacob's, a village I know like the back of my hand. The bottom line is that the buggies in St. Jacobs and West Montrose are the same type since they are all Old Order Mennonite. Peter K Burian (talk) 20:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@CuriousMind01: Here's the thing, these buggies really aren't seen in West Montrose. The Mennonites live in farms throughout the countryside of the Regional Municipality of Waterloo, but West Montrose is a small town with one convenience store. A buggy like this would hardly ever be seen driving through West Montrose. It would be like adding a photo of LaGuardia Airport to the Sunnyside, Staten Island article with the caption "an airport near Sunnyside". This article isn't about what's "around" West Montrose. The photo has been inappropriately placed onto this article, and would be better placed on the Woolwich, Ontario article, which is actually "around West Montrose". You'll notice that the photo of the church was taken by me, and I can tell you, there are no Mennonite buggies in West Montrose. At the least, I would suggest the article include a reliable source to support that there is a Mennonite population in West Montrose. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
*Revised to NO--@user:Magnolia677-- I don't see a reference to verify the caption, so I think the photo should be removed from this article. Also per your explanation the buggy would not be seen in West Montrose. You may wish to add your explanation to the RFC question above. I think the lead should be rewritten to clarify there are no Mennonites in West Montrose, as now written, the lead gives the impression there are Mennonites and buggies frequently seen in West Montrose. It might be best to removed the text about the Mennonites in the lead as irrelevant and misleading. "with a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies". CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. The photo does illustrate a topic (horse-drawn buggies) discussed in the article; I consider it credible that this photo is of an Old Order Mennonite buggy in the vicinity of West Montrose. Therefore, the photo belongs. @Magnolia677:, your argument above questions whether the topic belongs in the article, not whether the photo illustrates the topic; that's another matter. As to the relevance of the topic, while you make a plausible case, I would say that West Montrose, like many other unincorporated communities, is more a neighbourhood than a specific geographical point with rigid boundaries. I have personally witnessed horse-drawn buggies in the West Montrose neighbourhood. Thus, I accept the presence of the topic in the article, too. Tunborough (talk) 02:04, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See the new caption under the photo. And yes, West Montrose is an area, as the examples in my detailed discussion confirm. Not a tiny spot with a bridge. Peter K Burian (talk) 02:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter K Burian: You can't vote "yes" twice. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:11, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Right; I fixed that.
  • No, if the buggy photo isn't a scene from West Montrose and the buggy isn't a product of West Montrose. I don't understand the reasoning that because West Montrose had buggies or West Montrose had Mennonites who had buggies or that the article discusses buggies, it therefore makes sense for the article to have a picture of a buggy from any old place. Should it also have pictures of a log cabin in Virginia, a lumberyard in Brazil, a gunsmith in Slovakia, and a Mennonite family in northern Belize because the existence of all those things in West Montrose has been mentioned in the article? It's a digression. Largoplazo (talk) 17:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mennonites who look similar to the ones who occasionally drive their buggies through West Montrose enjoying the sites of Niagara Falls
Comment - MOS:IMAGES is very clear about this: "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative." Yet there is a photo of a buggy, showing a person who looks like the kind who occasionally ride through West Montrose, taken about 10 km from this place. I have deleted hundreds of photos from articles because they showed nothing about the article they had been posted on. On the Wikipedia article of every major airport in the world I have deleted photos which showed nothing but an airplane in the sky with the caption "an airplane about to land at this airport". Seriously! This article isn't about Mennonites; it's about West Montrose. We could just as well add the photo on the right. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Repeat: A very large area is called West Montrose, much, much larger than the bridge, church and houses on or off Covered Bridge Drive. I often see Mennonite buggies along Line 86 which is part of West Montrose.
The Winterbourne Old Order Mennonite Meetinghouse is located at 1118 Letson Drive, RR#2, West Montrose, Ontario. http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Winterbourne_Old_Order_Mennonite_Meetinghouse_(West_Montrose,_Ontario,_Canada)
See map: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/1118+Letson+Dr,+West+Montrose,+ON+N0B+2V0/@43.5710723,-80.476539,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x882bed3c34b3c747:0xa0fc9241f4faad18!8m2!3d43.5710723!4d-80.4743503
So, the photo is indicative of the types of buggies seen frequently in the large area called West Montrose. Peter K Burian (talk) 21:46, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How would you feel about including a photo of a Subaru Forester? I'm assuming that Subaru Foresters are a type of car often seen in West Montrose. Am I wrong? If West Montrose had a Tim Horton's, would we include a photo of an arbitrary Tim Horton's? Largoplazo (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No; it's misrepresentational, even if pretty close, so it simply isn't encyclopedic. See above: "the buggy photo isn't a scene from West Montrose and the buggy isn't a product of West Montrose. I don't understand the reasoning that because West Montrose had buggies or West Montrose had Mennonites who had buggies or that the article discusses buggies, it therefore makes sense for the article to have a picture of a buggy from any old place." By the same excuse-making rationales being offered by supporters here, if I had an article about me here, and I have brown hair, you could include any picture of someone with brown hair and say it represents me. WP doesn't work that way. The only way to include this might be with a caption something like "A buggy, in [wherever it was taken], similar to those used in West Montrose", but this still badly fails the encyclopedic information "sniff test" for me.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:33, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed discussion

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You will notice that the photo of the bridge was taken by me. My wife and I have stopped at the bridge on our way to St. Jacobs to visit family at least a dozen times in the past five years. Line 86 around Covered Bridge Drive into West Montrose, and Jigs Hollow Road (https://www.google.ca/maps/place/West+Montrose,+ON/@43.5830985,-80.4967743,14.56z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x882bece188ca41ef:0xca06d07401b970fd!8m2!3d43.586796!4d-80.482375) is full of Mennonite farms and on Sunday, we always see dozens of Mennonite buggies along this road. One one visit to the bridge, we did see a buggy cross the bridge. Admittedly, we did not on other visits.
The page about the bridge does NOT include the buggy photo since it was not taken on the bridge. But it is relevant to West Montrose since it is in the heart of Old Order Mennonite country.
The Mennnite archives have a great deal of content about West Montrose. https://archives.mhsc.ca/west-montrose-ontario Peter K Burian (talk) 16:40, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The area that is called West Montrose is much larger than the bridge, church and houses on or off Covered Bridge Drive. The Winterbourne Old Order Mennonite Meetinghouse is located at 1118 Letson Drive, RR#2, West Montrose, Ontario. http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Winterbourne_Old_Order_Mennonite_Meetinghouse_(West_Montrose,_Ontario,_Canada)

See map: https://www.google.ca/maps/place/1118+Letson+Dr,+West+Montrose,+ON+N0B+2V0/@43.5710723,-80.476539,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x882bed3c34b3c747:0xa0fc9241f4faad18!8m2!3d43.5710723!4d-80.4743503

Peter K Burian (talk) 16:46, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note 2: The geographic area of West Montrose is definitely larger than the hamlet. This Winterbourne turkey farm is also officially West Montrose https://www.hybridturkeys.com/en/about-us/

Hybrid Turkeys Winterbourne Farm RR 2 West Montrose, ON N0B 2V0 https://411.ca/business/profile/6571917 OR http://www.yellowpages.ca/bus/Ontario/West-Montrose/Hybrid-Turkeys-Winterbourne-Farm/100636337.html

This Kountry Kitchen store in Winterbourne is also in West Montrose, RR2... https://www.cylex.ca/company/kountry-kitchen-cupboard-23423152.html

Peter K Burian (talk) 16:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

      • I think the photo caption: "Mennonite buggy in nearby St. Jacobs; this type of conveyance is very common around West Montrose" has to have a reliable secondary source which verifies the caption, otherwise the photo and caption have to be deleted. The term:"around West Montrose" is not defined, and is vague. West Montrose is the subject of this article. CuriousMind01 (talk) 18:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good news; the caption is more generic now. i.e. "Folks, this is an example of what Old Order Mennonites drive, and there are many such people - and such conveyances - around West Montrose as the lead of the article explains." (I'll bet there are millions of people in the world who have no idea what Old Order Mennonites are.) Peter K Burian (talk) 02:24, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Peter K Burian You write the area of West Montrose is larger than the hamlet. As I read the article I understand the subject is the hamlet only. You could explain in the article the subject is the hamlet and a larger area called West Montrose.CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:52, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, CuriousMind01 good idea. Done. Peter K Burian (talk) 16:12, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fine, the horse and buggy photo is gone

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Honestly, this entire issue is a waste of your time and my time. How anyone could have a problem with showing people what an Old Order Mennonite looks like is beyond me. And these kind of buggies are all over the highway around West Montrose, especially on Sundays.

But to stop the sarcasm about Subarus, etc. I deleted the photo. You have won. Congratulations. Peter K Burian (talk) 01:22, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't sarcasm, it was meant to guide down a line of reasoning to a logical conclusion. You were actually meant to think, "Well, of course it would be silly to have a photo of an arbitrary Subaru just because Subarus can be seen there. Oh! I get it! That's the point! It's just as silly to have a photo of a buggy!" The same goes for a photo of an arbitrary Old Order Mennonite. There's nothing wrong with showing what one looks like in an article about Old Order Mennonites. In this article, it's a digression, which is what the problem with it is. Largoplazo (talk) 04:33, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I, too, read it as sarcasm. The density of Old Order Mennonites and their buggies is much higher than average around West Montrose. The density of Subarus (to my knowledge) is not. The photo wasn't taken any old place: St. Jacobs is a buggy ride away from West Montrose, which Niagara Falls is not. Tunborough (talk) 12:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If someone tries to illustrate the flaws in someone's reasoning through an analogy, it must be sarcasm? Duly noted.
It isn't clear what the relative density has to do with anything. In an article about any community, how would it make sense to show a photo of some kind of vehicle based solely on the fact that it happens to be a commonly seen kind of vehicle in that community? Largoplazo (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think if the buggy is often seen in the West Montrose area, and the buggy is an unusual site outside the area, making the buggy a unique site in the area, and this article is about the West Montrose area, and not just the West Montrose hamlet, then I think the buggy photo would be informative in the article.CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:57, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't at all unique in the area. It's found in all areas where Mennonites drive buggies. A scene of buggies driving in West Montrose would be one thing, but a buggy for the sake of having a buggy is another, as would be a photo of a Mennonite living in Illinois or Belize. Largoplazo (talk) 14:14, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a photo of Mennonites in the West Montrose area driving a buggy that can be included in this article?
I think the photo would be informative.CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:50, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I thought of the same idea when reading through this string, CuriousMind01. But if we're making sure such a photo were to be absolutely in line with MOS:IMAGES, I would just want to confirm that it's a basically unassailable assumption that anyone in West Montrose driving a buggy would necessarily be Old Order Mennonnite, and not any other Mennonite branch? It'sAllinthePhrasing (talk) 01:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The distance from the core of St. Jacobs to the covered bridge in West Montrose is 8.7 miles. The entire area, on a Sunday especially, is full of Old Order horse and buggies. But 20 miles from here, in Kitchener, Ontario, you could go your entire life and never see one. Peter K Burian (talk) 22:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And the Government of Ontario considers West Montrose to be in St. Jacobs Country. https://www.ontariotravel.net/en/explore/huron-perth-waterloo-and-wellington/st-jacobs-country

Well It'sAllinthePhrasing I deleted the photo days ago. Wikimedia does not have one that is taken in the heart of West Montrose. The majority of Mennonites are not old order. They drive black cars. Only Old Order drive horse and buggy. But that is academic since we no longer have a photo.

Old Order (Wisler horse and buggy) Mennonites are found in five major settlements in Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, and Ontario. Peter K Burian (talk) 01:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm with you, Peter K Burian - I was just saying if someone were to go out and take a pic tomorrow of a horse and buggy in West Montrose and revive this discussion, we would just need to confirm that whoever was driving it was in fact old order. But you answered that question. It'sAllinthePhrasing (talk) 01:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok thanks It'sAllinthePhrasing I have gotten overly sensitive after all the arguments on this really minor topic. Sorry if I snapped at you. Thanks for adding an opinion. Cheers. Peter K Burian 02:50, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources

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An editor has added information about "the area defined as West Montrose on maps and rural addresses". The editor cited a Wiki-like encyclopedia, as well as a Google Map as a source. WP:NOTRELIABLE seems clear about this. I removed the unreliable sources from the text, and added a "citation needed" tag. My edit was reverted. The input of other editors would be appreciated. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:14, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How is the Mennonite Encyclopedia an unreliable source? Simply because the editors use a wiki-style format?
'Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online falls under the umbrella of the Mennonite World Conference Faith and Life Commission. Members of the Management Board include: Mennonite Historical Society of Canada, Mennonite Church USA Archives, Mennonite Brethren Historical Commission, Mennonite Central Committee, Mennonite World Conference and the Institute for the Study of Global Anabaptism'
 Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia Online: The mission of GAMEO is to provide reliable information on Anabaptist-related (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, Brethren in Christ) topics, including history, theology, biography, institutions and local congregations. Secular topics from an Anabaptist perspective are also included.
  GAMEO includes the full text of the print Mennonite Encyclopedia, and continues to add new content both from North America and around the world.  Initiated by the Mennonite Historical Library at Goshen College the site is committed to helping individual groups
Peter K Burian (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The text on the left side of this Google Map says the meeting house is located at 1118 Letson Dr, Woolwich, ON N0B 2V0. Also, the encyclopedia is a Wiki; it's not a reliable source. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Woolwich Township is an umbrella address that Google Maps uses for many rural locations. Peter K Burian (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When you Google 1118 Letson Dr, N0B 2V0 here's what you get, from Google maps. West Montrose. https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=1118+Letson+Dr.+N0B+2V0 Peter K Burian (talk) 22:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If Google use the "umbrella address"--whatever an umbrella address is--of "Woolwich", then stating "West Montrose" is dubious and misleading to readers. These two maps don't support that the meeting house is in West Montrose:[1][2], and Bing says the meeting house is in "Waterloo Woolwich". I urge to appreciate that the edit: "In addition to the hamlet, the area defined as West Montrose on maps and rural addresses extends some distance from the core. For example, the Winterbourne Old Order Mennonite Meetinghouse is located at a West Montrose address, 1118 Letson Drive, and not a Winterbourne, Ontario address" --is both awkwardly written and dubiously sourced. It's not about winning and losing, it's about improving the project. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, the Mennonite Historical Society of Canada also puts the meeting house in West Montrose: https://archives.mhsc.ca/winterbourne-mennonite-meetinghouse-west. And I would consider GAMEO a reliable source: "Articles in GAMEO are assigned and editorially reviewed before upload; GAMEO is not a "Wiki"-style project." (http://gameo.org/index.php?title=GAMEO:About) However, I don't think this one article about one specific unincorporated community is the place to debate whether such articles apply to a few houses at a crossroads, or a broader rural area. With the removal of the contentious photograph, I think the point is moot, for this article at least. Tunborough (talk) 23:24, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Tunborough. OK, let's see if we can get a few more comments. It's Easter Sunday so not many people are on Wikipedia. We celebrated yesterday. Peter K Burian (talk) 02:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I consider Google Maps and the GAMEO each reliable sources. I did not read anything in WP:NOTRELIABLE negating either as a reliable source. GAMEO is a controlled edited source, not an anyone can edit source.
  • Using free Wiki software does not automatically mean the source is not a reliable source, another example Scholarpedia website uses free Wiki software, is written by experts and is peer reviewed, but does not allow open editing by anyone. Wikipedia states it is not a reliable source, because it is open to editing by anyone and may have false information at any given time. Using Wiki software does not make a source unreliable, allowing open editing, like WP, makes a source unreliable, per WP.CuriousMind01 (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @CuriousMind01 and @Tunborough for confirming my view that the Global Anabaptist Mennonite Encyclopedia is a reliable source.
The question now is, Do we still need to include the comment as to the size of West Montrose? Is this still relevant, now that I have deleted the horse and buggy photo after that issue turned into a long debate? Tunborough has suggested it is probably moot now. I would be willing to delete that. The point I have been trying to make is that the other editor should not have deleted that content on the basis of an Unreliable Source when GAMEO is reliable. (Delete content if irrelevant, and on that basis, but not because you do not like the source.) Peter K Burian (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think yes, to state the size of West Montrose area versus the hamlet.CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Need to paraphrase content (not copy from sources)

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My first edit of this article was on March 29, 2017.

Prior to my involvement, there was not a single citation in the article. The paragraph about Mennonites read like this:

00:39, 22 March 2017‎ Together with nearby St. Jacobs, Ontario and Elmira, Ontario, West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies.

I just found where that uncited content came from (taken almost verbatim): Together with nearby St. Jacobs, Ontario and Elmira, Ontario, West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies. http://www.woolwich.ca/en/discover-us/resources/Accessible_-_Self-Guided_Tour_of_Woolwich_Area_through_Mennonite_Country_.pdf

It is not acceptable to quote direct from sources.

I have revised the content about Mennonites, paraphrasing. Peter K Burian (talk) 22:34, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The source says nothing about Mennonites in West Montrose. Why paraphrase it? Magnolia677 (talk) 22:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read this? It says both West Montrose and Mennonites: 
  Together with nearby St. Jacobs, Ontario and Elmira, Ontario, West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies. http://www.woolwich.ca/en/discover-us/resources/Accessible_-_Self-Guided_Tour_of_Woolwich_Area_through_Mennonite_Country_.pdf
It is surprising that the editors who worked on this article for years did not add any citations. Peter K Burian (talk) 23:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your source does not say that. Read it again. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:31, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does say that. West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites . Let's see if any other editors agree with you. Peter K Burian (talk) 23:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


1. A Source:http://www.royallepage.ca/en/on/west-montrose/ for the text above Together with nearby ...

2. Quotes are allowed in WP per https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations

I don't see that quote in the PDF you linked to either. That quote must have come from somewhere, though, as Google finds about a dozen hits on it on an assortment of websites. However, looking through the history of that sentence on this page, I'm convinced that quote evolved in this article over time, then migrated to other places: they are quoting this article, not the other way around. I can see why they quote it ... it's a nice sentence. I'd be happy to leave it in. Tunborough (talk) 02:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
hmmm. You are right. How was I so sure it came from that article? Ok I was wrong. Yes, wrong. Ok tomorrow I will revise to include the original sentence. Peter K Burian from my smartphone
@Tunborough: So because the quote originated on Wikipedia, you'd be happy to leave it in? Huh?? Both of you, read WP:CIRCULAR, and don't you dare add that fake information to this article. Magnolia677 (talk) 03:38, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that @Tunborough: and @CuriousMind01 agreed that this sentence was suitable and the facts in it confirmed by the sources. And I agree too; (I was only questioning whether the content needed to be paraphrased, but now I realize it was not copied from some other source as Tunborough discovered). Who (except forMagnolia677)does not agree?:
  West Montrose, together with nearby St. Jacobs and Elmira, lies in the centre of an area of Woolwich Township which has a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonite families noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies.[2][3][4][5]
That sentence has been part of the lead since 2007, as various editors worked on it. Why is it "fake" information all of a sudden? Peter K Burian (talk) 13:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lead paragraph about Mennonites

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The lead section contains the following sentence, along with four sources to support it:

West Montrose, together with nearby St. Jacobs and Elmira, lies in the centre of an area of Woolwich Township which has a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonite families noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies.

This sentence goes beyond synthesis and the combining of "material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources", and appears to be original research, unsupported by sources.

Walk, bike, boat or hike...The Conestogo and Grand Rivers wind through the area offering canoeing and fishing opportunities. Outdoor enthusiasts will enjoy several picturesque trails including the new Trans Canada Trail, which follows existing trails such as the Mill Race Trail in St. Jacobs, the Health Valley Trail, and the Kissing Bridge Trailway from Wallenstein to West Montrose.

and

Enjoy the beauty and serenity of our countryside as you explore local attractions close to St. Jacobs: the "Kissing Bridge" in West Montrose - built in 1881, it's the last remaining covered bridge in Ontario; the towns of Fergus (settled by the Scots), and Elora which is home of the beautiful Elora Gorge Conservation Area.

  • The third source cited is a history of Elora and vicinity (Elora is 14 km from West Monsrose). West Montrose is mentioned on eight pages of the book, though "Mennonite" is not mentioned once in the book.

It important to acknowledge that this article is about West Montrose, and not about Woolwich Township or about neighbouring communities, which have their own Wikipedia articles. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:21, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Yes, the Woolwich, Ontario article (about the Township) also discusses Old Order Mennonites, but when a reader wants to know about West Montrose, and finds this article, he should know the importance of the Mennonites in this area.
'Note: There was not a single citation for the 13 years this article existed before my first edit.
This was the lead for this article as it was immediately before my first edit on 29 March 2017‎.
  (cur | prev) 00:39, 22 March 2017‎ Magnolia677 (talk | contribs)‎ West Montrose is a village in the Township of Woolwich in the Region of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. West Montrose straddles the Grand River, one of Canada's historic rivers.Together with nearby St. Jacobs, Ontario and Elmira, Ontario, West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies.

i.e. The lead already discussed the Mennonites and did not have a single citation. In fact, there was not a single citation in the entire article between 16:23, 10 March 2004 and 00:39, 22 March 2017‎ .
I revised the lead slightly and added citations after many comments in TALK and once again, we are arguing about the quality of citations that I added. Yes, I could find new citations but honestly, is it necessary? Your thoughts @It'sAllinthePhrasing and @CuriousMind01 and @Tunborough Peter K Burian (talk) 13:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Major sections deleted from the lead. Why?? Need Consensus

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I read the lead as it was five minutes ago and large chunks of the text had been arbitrarily deleted, including the part about Old Order Mennonites and the size of the area called West Montrose.

This is the version I am referring to: 12:28, 20 April 2017‎ Magnolia677 . (9,580 bytes) (-1,141)‎ .

I do not understand why those major deletions were made, when there does not seem to be any consensus in Talk that any of it should have been deleted. I have inserted the content again so it reads as it did before major chunks were deleted.

Several editors have been involved in the discussions about these issues and I hope they will comment again so we can firm up the consensus as to what the lead should, or should not, contain. @It'sAllinthePhrasing and @CuriousMind01 and @Tunborough and @Largoplazo

Peter K Burian (talk) 14:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion bring back the lead sections deleted. I think revert the deletions, and per WP:Preserve add citations needed tags where needed.CuriousMind01 (talk) 15:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I did revert it so the full lead, as it was before the deletion, is visible again. 

  West Montrose is an unincorporated rural community in Woolwich Township, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.[1][2]

  The Grand River flows through West Montrose. West Montrose, together with nearby St. Jacobs and Elmira, lies in the centre of an area of Woolwich Township which has a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonite families noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies.[3][4][5][6]

  Located in West Montrose are single family homes, a church, a small store, and the West Montrose Covered Bridge which is a well-publicized tourist attraction.[7][8] In addition to the core of the settlement, the area defined as West Montrose on maps and rural addresses extends some distance from the core. For example, the Winterbourne Old Order Mennonite Meetinghouse is located at a West Montrose address, 1118 Letson Drive, and not a Winterbourne, Ontario address.[9][10]

  The population at the 2016 Census was 267.[11]

Peter K Burian (talk) 16:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The content has been challanged. WP:CHALLENGE states "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." The content should be added back only with a reliable source. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Challenge states the text must be verifiable, and the verification is being challenged, it does not state do an automatic delete. Per WP:Preserve add citation needed tags where verification is needed. I often see text not cited, but seems valid, so editors add citation needed tags, and then citations are usually added by other editors. Adding the tags, informs reader the text needs verification. Just deleting disrupts building WP. I see citations were added now.CuriousMind01 (talk) 20:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: The first part of the lead per my edit is almost identical to the lead as it was before my first involvement (in March 2017) while Magnolia677 was the most active editor on this article. It had been totally uncited, so I added some citations.
I added extra info about the size of West Montrose, and this has been discussed in Talk; I believe there was consensus that this content is fine. Certainly, there was consensus that the sources I cited are in fact reliable.
What is not verifiable? The lead is short and there are ten citations. They are reliable sources. What else do I need to verify?? Peter K Burian (talk) 16:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peter K Burian: First, please take a moment to read the many, many cautions other editors have posted on your talk page, specifically the ones which tell you to properly indend your messages on talk pages. I mean seriously, look at the mess you've made of this talk page. Second, with this edit I removed an obvious peacock statement. Why did you revert it? Magnolia677 (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These are the citations in the lead. All content has been verified.

  • "Woolwich". Statistics Canada. November 2, 2016.

Peter K Burian (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would support changing, "West Montrose Covered Bridge which is a well-publicized tourist attraction," to, "West Montrose Covered Bridge, a local tourist attraction," and dropping the two sentences about, "the area defined as...". I think the second paragraph is accurate, pertinent to West Montrose, and not applicable to Woolwich in general; you could use references [8] (therecord.com), [9] (gameo.org) and [12] (waterloo region museum) in that paragraph for additional support on the presence of Old Order Mennonites if such support is necessary. Tunborough (talk) 18:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence about the Mennonites is unsourced personal opinion. The census profile for West Montrose does not mention it's large number of Mennonites. The only evidence of any religion in West Montrose is the photo of the United Church. In fact, this demographic survey of Woolwich Township shows that Mennonites make up just 17.5 percent of the population. If Mennonites historically dominated the population of West Montrose, then a reliable source is needed to support this. Keeping the sentence as it is now, unsourced, is misleading to readers and contrary to the intent of WP:UNDUE. It would probably be more accurate to write "West Montrose is located in what has historically been a Christian-majority township. They can be seen driving their minivans, wearing jeans, and texting their friends". Magnolia677 (talk) 19:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From the Record article in [8]: "The village has enormous, executive homes in new suburbs on its edge, Old Order Mennonite Farms around it and a quaint country store that serves everyone." There is also an active meetinghouse, as noted in [9]. The sentence is sourced. Tunborough (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Peter K Burian (talk) 19:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peter K Burian: This article is about "West Montrose". Therefore, providing sources which do not mention West Montrose is not helpful. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. This is useful information since West Montrose is in the St. Jacobs area.
The Government of Ontario considers West Montrose to be in St. Jacobs Country. https://www.ontariotravel.net/en/explore/huron-perth-waterloo-and-wellington/st-jacobs-country
I just found this Woolwich Township Publication: Together with nearby St. Jacobs, Ontario and Elmira, Ontario, West Montrose lies in the heart of an area where there is a historically large settlement of Old Order Mennonites noted for their traditional customs, dress and use of horse and buggies. http://www.woolwich.ca/en/discover-us/resources/Accessible_-_Self-Guided_Tour_of_Woolwich_Area_through_Mennonite_Country_.pdf
The Ontario region of Waterloo hosts the largest population of Old Order Mennonites in Canada, with St Jacobs, Elmira and Breslau home to most of them. https://canadaalive.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/old-order-mennonites/ Peter K Burian (talk) 22:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about Mennonite population in West Montrose, Ontario

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Withdrawn by nominator following the addition of reliable sources to support article content. Alcherin (talk) 08:05, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the sentences:

Many of the original settlers in this area, and many who live there now, are Old Order Mennonite families who maintain traditional customs which include the use of horse and buggy for transportation.

And

The horse and buggy was the primary transportation among the Mennonites for decades. Today, Old Order Mennonites still use this mode of transportation.

...remain in the article?

Concerns:

  • None of the sources cited support that Mennonites live or have lived in West Montrose.
  • This source, cited later in the article, states "the village has...Old Order Mennonite Farms around it".
  • The claim that the boundaries of West Montrose extend to the location of a Mennonite Meetinghouse is contradicted by three reliable sources.
  • The article is not about Mennonites or the area surrounding West Montrose. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey/Vote

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  • Yes. Did we not already have a consensus about all this? Several sources confirm that this part of Waterloo Region has many Old Order Mennonites.
  The Ontario region of Waterloo hosts the largest population of Old Order Mennonites in Canada, with St Jacobs, Elmira and Breslau home to most of them.  https://canadaalive.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/old-order-mennonites/ 
  The Government of Ontario considers West Montrose as part of the tourist district of St. Jacobs because it's only 7-8 miles away and is similar: rural with many Old Order Mennonites. https://www.ontariotravel.net/en/explore/huron-perth-waterloo-and-wellington/st-jacobs-country: ST. JACOBS COUNTRY
We had consensus that GAMEO encyclopedia is a reliable source. It confirms that West Montrose extends quite some distance from the core of the settlement, including the area where the Winterbourne Meeting House is located.
This article is also not about the bridge but that is mentioned as are the Old Order Mennonites in the area. Mentioned.

Peter K Burian (talk) 13:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ADDED 13:48, 21 April 2017 St. Jacobs is the commercial centre of Mennonite life in the Grand River valley. http://www.cangeoeducation.ca/resources/rivers_of_canada/grand_river/old_order.asp
West Montrose is in the Grand River Valley; the core is only 7 miles from the centre of the Mennonite life.
Neat farms owned by Mennonites carpet the middle reaches of the valley. Some of these long-ago immigrants from Pennsylvania and Germany move about in plain, always black, automobiles. But many Mennonites still ride to church and town in simple, hand-made buggies drawn by horses that know their way along back roads, left unpaved to cushion the animals' hooves and legs. http://www.cangeoeducation.ca/resources/rivers_of_canada/docs/grand_river.pdf

Peter K Burian (talk) 13:48, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes. GAMEO, http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Winterbourne_Old_Order_Mennonite_Meetinghouse_(West_Montrose,_Ontario,_Canada), acknowledges that there is an Old Order Mennonite meeting house within territory known as West Montrose. Old Order Mennonites attend that meeting house. They use horses and buggies to get there. The Record article notes that the store in the village is run by Mennonites; although it does not specify that they are Old Order, I would expect to find Old Order members shopping there on occasion, again by horse and buggy. Thus, there must be Old Order Mennonites with horses and buggies in territory known as West Montrose. For most readers, their presence in the West Montrose area is notable. However, you aren't likely to get a host of sources reporting their presence because for most people in the KW area, they are taken for granted as part of the landscape. Tunborough (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Three maps [3][4][5] do not support that the meeting house location is in West Montrose. Magnolia677 (talk) 14:29, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - You had made it abundantly clear that you doe not consider Google Maps a reliable source. So why are any of the above reliable sources? We now have an Encyclopedia that states that the Winterbourne Meeting House is in West Montrose. Peter K Burian (talk) 14:44, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I added a "disputed – discuss" tag to the sources here. You deleted the tag. Magnolia677 (talk) 14:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, lovely lady she is that Mrs. Heckendorn. But you know Peter, I was talking with the guy who plows the snow along that stretch of road, you know him, Fred something. Anyway, he swears the "Winterbourne Old Order Mennonite Meetinghouse" is actually located in nearby Winterbourne. But because we are editing an encyclopedia, maybe it would be best if we not use these sorts of original research, and just stick to real maps and stuff. If that's the case, then the boundaries of West Montrose are not clear, so drawing any firm conclusions about what is or isn't located within those unclear boundaries would not benefit the readers of Wikipedia. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea; I added the MapQuest source citation to confirm that it is in West Montrose.
Should I also add the Google Map citation? 1118 Letson Dr West Montrose, ON N0B 2V0
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/1118+Letson+Dr,+West+Montrose,+ON+N0B+2V0/@43.5710723,-80.476539,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x882bed3c34b3c747:0xa0fc9241f4faad18!8m2!3d43.5710723!4d-80.4743503 Peter K Burian (talk) 15:30, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a useful source: The village has enormous, executive homes in new suburbs on its edge, Old Order Mennonite Farms around it and a quaint country store that serves everyone. (It is already Citation #9) http://www.therecord.com/news-story/4118876-group-celebrates-victory-to-maintain-area-s-idyllic-nature/
Peter K Burian (talk) 20:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is this worth putting in the article?.....my rule of thumb is....if multiple reliable published sources do not include historical information found at some random website, then that information is—by definition—not important enough to include. That said J. Winfield Fretz (1989). The Waterloo Mennonites: A Community in Paradox. Wilfrid Laurier Univ. Press. ISBN 978-0-88920-985-5.--Moxy (talk) 20:36, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nice to see you again Moxy; I often do find books online (with Google Books) but rarely get a preview of more than a few pages. The one you suggested allows for reading many pages. I am trying to find a discussion of West Montrose or the St. Jacobs area. If I can do so, this would be a useful citation! Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 20:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Its hard to find sources on small places.....but if you live close.... Elizabeth Macnaughton; Pat Wagner (2009). Guide to Historical Resources in the Regional Municipality of Waterloo. Wilfrid Laurier Univ. Press. ISBN 978-0-88920-718-9..--Moxy (talk) 20:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure enough, they have Mennonites and horse and buggies in West Montrose. http://www.therecord.com/news-story/2583058-west-montrose-residents-protest-gravel-pit-proposal/ West Montrose residents protest gravel pit proposal
  During the rally, a Mennonite buggy drove by. “Pause and enjoy that for a second,” said Tony Dowling ....  Keeping the Mennonite community is one of his biggest concerns. He says that Mennonites have already left Waterloo proper after it grew too large, and he’s worried they’ll “vote with their feet” if the pit and its horse-spooking trucks are allowed to converge on the area. 

   The company planned to dig up an estimated 2.6 million tonnes of sand and gravel that sits "underneath a cornfield in the Mennonite area". http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/battle-against-west-montrose-gravel-pit-gets-boost-1.660435
Peter K Burian (talk) 22:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I updated the lead of the article with content from new sources, including the Township of Woolwich West Montrose Cultural Heritage Landscape Study which confirms the Old Order Mennonite culture of West Montrose; I also updated the section discussing the size of West Montrose with a map from the same source. Peter K Burian (talk) 00:06, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finding sources to support your edits. I withdraw this RfC. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:18, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for acknowledging the value of these sources. Peter K Burian (talk) 00:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Archived TALK sections no longer current Talk:West montrose ontario archives 1

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Anyone who might be willing to provide feedback to help ensure consensus would be totally confused with the numerous debates in this Talk section.

Hence, I have archived the older topics that are no longer currently being added to, such as the one about the Horse and Buggy Photo, which has since been deleted; that discussion is no longer relevant. Of course, it is available in the Archive. Talk:West montrose ontario archives 1

This archiving of talk pages procedure was explained to me by two Administrators: Sergecross73 and by ferret. Peter K Burian (talk) 16:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an Archives box and moved the archive to the correct location, Talk:West Montrose, Ontario/Archive 1. -- ferret (talk) 16:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted one archived thread (Need to paraphrase content (not copy from sources) to this Talk page since the last post is quite recent; although I doubt it is an ongoing thread. Peter K Burian (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One note Peter: Typically threads are not archived till they have gone without a reply for at least 30 days. -- ferret (talk) 16:52, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Ferret: The threads that have been archived are active and pertinent to the current RFC. Could the discussions from the past 30 days be reverted? Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, ferret. I see you already reverted all threads except for one old one. Peter K Burian (talk) 17:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I've moved all April 2017 threads back from the archive. Peter: If anyone objects, then yes, it should also be restored. General rule of thumb is at least 30 days before archiving a thread, unless a talk page is particularly heavy or oversized and its clear the thread is no longer being discussed. Magnolia677 does not seem to view these discussions as completed at this time, or feels other editors may yet want to weigh in. -- ferret (talk) 17:07, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No argument from me ferret. However, I will just say that the Talk page is definitely oversized for such a short article, IMHO. But I understand the point you are making; a good learning experience. Peter K Burian (talk) 17:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tips and Ideas

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I was asked to look at this article, but since I'm an American I feel at a disadvantage because I'm not aware of Canadian community layout guidelines. I did a search and found this "Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian communities/Structure guideline", but I am more familiar with the American community layout at WP:USCITY, which might be helpful for some ideas. If you don't like my edits, then go ahead and change it. Good luck. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 23:55, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sbmeirow  : We had a lot of disputes about this article but finally got them resolved. The problem is that this entire community has a population of under 300 and very few businesses so there is not much to talk about. Cheers! Peter K Burian (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Sbmeirow @CuriousMind01 and @Tunborough and @Hwy43and @Largoplazo : Good morning. I had added a Government section as per the Canadian Community Structure and it was deleted in its entirety. Because "the article is not about the township or region". It is a rural settlement without its own government. Is the following not suitable content?
   This small settlement is in Woolwich Township which is a community in the Regional Municipality of Waterloo. The Township has its own municipal government consisting of five Councillors and a Mayor; the latter also serves on the Waterloo Region Council. http://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/regionalgovernment/regionalcouncil.asp
Thanks, Peter K Burian (talk) 13:45, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I came here as a one-time request. I'm done with this article, so please don't spam my name to get my attention. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 15:03, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Peter K Burian: WP:CCSG suggests listing "Governing body (council, mayor)" (for incorporated places only). As you say, this is "a rural settlement without its own government". It seems contrary to WP:PROPORTION to discuss the next higher levels of government, either municipal, provincial or federal. It would also be a bad precedent to set, as you could add this same text about government to every stub article in the region, including Zuber Corners. WP:CCSG also suggests adding information about sports teams, major employers and transportation. Would it be appropriate to add to this article information about the Honda plant in Alliston, Pearson Airport in Mississauga, or the Toronto Blue Jays? Wikipedia readers did not come to the West Montrose article to learn about how the municipality governs itself (or about the Toronto Blue Jays). Also, User:Peter K Burian, could you please take a moment to learn how to properly indent your talk page comments! This has been asked of you numerous times, including here, and by myself and others on your talk page. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:21, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • My opinion: 1. The description, of the Woolwich Township government does not belong in this article or have to be repeated in this article, but can be in the Township article.
2. The Government section can state something like: West Montrose does not have its own local government, it is governed by the Woolrich Township. with references.:::::CuriousMind01 (talk) 11:44, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Magnolia677, Where did I not indent correctly???? Peter K Burian (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Should we add this? Murder in West Montrose.

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Probably not since it was so long ago and is not relevant, but the greatest coverage this tiny hamlet has received: ... in the early hours of Dec. 28, 1947, four members of the Letson family were savagely murdered by one of their own, before he turned the gun on himself. The shooting remains one of Waterloo Region's worst mass murders. https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7377037-memories-of-murder-suicide-still-linger-in-west-montrose/

Elmira Signet, Thursday, January 1, 1948, pg 1: A family was wiped out; a suicide committed and five are dead due to jealousy over an eighteen year old girl, Miss Eleanor Springer, in a family quarrel which started shortly after midnight Sunday morning last. The dead are: Hugh Letson, 45; his wife, Mary, 44; two brothers, Percy, 38 and Wilson, 43, and a cousin Walter (Pat) Letson. The entire Letson family was wiped out by gunfire by Pat Letson. On Saturday evening Mr. and Mrs. Hugh Letson, Wilson Letson and Eleanor Springer went to Kitchener and on the way home stopped at Bridgeport Hotel for beverages. Arriving home shortly after midnight the car was driven to the driving shed. As Wilson stepped out of the car he was blasted in the chest with a 12-gauge shotgun in the hands of Pat Letson, according to the statement given to the coroner, Dr. LeRoy Wagner, Elmira, and the Provincial police. He died instantly and fell beside the car. Then followed a very heated argument which took them into the house. Shortly after two or three shots were reported as being fired, according to the only witness of the affair still alive, Eleanor Springer. It is believed both Mr. and Mrs. Letson were killed at this time and also Percy Letson. Sunday wore on before any hint of the shooting became known. No gunshots were heard by neighbors, there being a community wedding party which most attended, the night before. It was Elisha Pollock, 87, aged cousin, slightly blind and hard of hearing found Pat Letson, on the kitchen couch, and when he failed to awaken with repeated shaking, went to the neighbours to inform them Pat was dead. He failed to see the gunshot wound in the chest. He was accompanied back by Wilfred Heinbein [Heibein] and Robert Winfield who found Pat had been shot. Dr. LeRoy Wagner was then notified and went down to West Montrose to investigate.... Provincial police were notified by Dr. Wagner and the investigation got under way.... Sometime between three o'clock and seven, Pat Letson shot himself in the kitchen when he sent the aged Mr. Pollock to the barn to do some chores. http://generations.regionofwaterloo.ca/getperson.php?personID=I7570&tree=generations

Peter K Burian (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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