Talk:Welfare spending/Archive 3
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Odd sentence.
- In the end, this term replaces "charity" as it was known for thousands of years, being the act of providing for those who temporarily or permanently could not provide for themselves.
...does it, though? Charity is still used in this sense, welfare refers more to the systems in place than the act itself, and I'm not sure what the sentence is getting at overall, exactly.Twin Bird (talk) 04:47, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, this sentence has no logical or etymological basis and should be removed. BlueSalix (talk) 05:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
U.S. Welfare
The welfare discussion under the subsection of the United States is very minimal and simplistic. Unlike other countries, the U.S. is an extremely diverse country, with many different languages, ethnicities, and immigrant groups. This diversity makes the welfare system very complex and, particularly, racialized. Therefore, it is imperative that a discussion on misperceptions of welfare be included, as well as a presentation of how welfare, a program designed to assist the neediest, has become to be closely associated with specific races/ethnicities (primarily Hispanics and African Americans). Unmdgs (talk) 02:01, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
- I support a split, this subject needs to be developed in a dedicated article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:32, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
I would just like to point to this quote and then talk about it. " In the 1970s, California was the U.S. state with the most generous Welfare system.[18] In 2012, the states with the highest percentage of people using food stamps were Mississippi (20.7%), Oregon (20.1%), New Mexico (19.8%), Tennessee (19.8%), and Michigan (19.7%).[19] California, with 12% of the U.S. population, has one-third of the nation's welfare recipients.[20][21] " here, I take issue with California being called the most generous state. the word generosity implies a wilful kindness, which, as we can see by the reality in california, has 1/3 of the nations people living in poverty. the state also has one of the highest rates of income inequality, leading me to suggest that the cause of poverty is not from giving welfare to those who need it, but not giving those on welfare enough to achieve economic mobility and absolve themselves of poverty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.240.56 (talk) 05:08, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Tagging for primary sources (POV, Neutrality) in Ethnic heterogenity
"Voucher programs can make us worse off because of the cap on our ability to spend on ‘all other goods’ our indifference curves could limit us." This sentence seems slightly bias and there is no reference. Should this be removed? 64.222.254.25 (talk) 22:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The new section Ethnic heterogenity, appears to be based on primary sources. Please help improve the section by locating independent secondary sources which establish the weight of views expressed in the primary sources. aprock (talk) 20:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The source is a literature review and not a primary source. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The content you added just cites primary sources through the review. In fact, the actual synthesis of the review is ignored in the content you added:
. Based on this, it appears that the section has significant POV issues. aprock (talk) 21:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)However, our main conclusion from this survey is that most studies do not point to a quantitatively important role for ethnic diversity in shaping natives’ preferences for redistribution. In most studies, the association is much weaker than for other factors such as own income (current or expected) or beliefs about the role of effort versus luck in determining this income. Moreover, it seems that the sizeable negative association between ethnic diversity and support for redistribution that is sometimes found in U.S. studies does not generalize to Canada or Europe. However, the evidence for countries other than the U.S. is scarce so far, and there is certainly need for further research.
- All reviews cites primary sources so that is not a reason for exclusion. I have mentioned that the effect is weak. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Picking and choosing which of the reviewed primary sources to highlight is WP:SYNTHESIS. Ignoring the actual conclusion (most studies do not point to a quantitatively important role for ethnic diversity) to instead promote your own interpretation (statistically significant but relatively weak negative relationship) is a perfect example of POV editing. aprock (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The introductory statement also states that the effect is sometimes quite strong in the US which I have not mentioned. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Do you have an alternative formulation? We could quote the actual text if you prefer.Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Picking and choosing which of the reviewed primary sources to highlight is WP:SYNTHESIS. Ignoring the actual conclusion (most studies do not point to a quantitatively important role for ethnic diversity) to instead promote your own interpretation (statistically significant but relatively weak negative relationship) is a perfect example of POV editing. aprock (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- All reviews cites primary sources so that is not a reason for exclusion. I have mentioned that the effect is weak. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:19, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- The content you added just cites primary sources through the review. In fact, the actual synthesis of the review is ignored in the content you added:
Probably the best way to approach a technical review would be to use the Non-technical summary on page three as a basis for the content:[1]
excerpt from paper |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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It's difficult to imagine that we can improve on the authors own lay summary. aprock (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Sure, as a basis, but it is not particularly clear in places like how individual attitudes and behavior are affected. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- If those details are not mentioned in the lay summary, they don't need to be in wikipedia. aprock (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- No such rule. If something is unclear it should be clarified. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- When you pick and choose what parts of a source to include, and what parts to exclude, that is synthesis. Using generally accepted summary sections of a source as a basis for content is the straightforward way to approach the issue. Comparing the content that you inserted with the lay summary above, there is a clear disconnect indicating POV issues with what you added. Instead of advocating for highlighting whatever portions of the review that you are most interested in promoting, I suggest you start from scratch with the lay summary. aprock (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- Using your argumentation everything except a complete quote of the whole paper or the whole summary is a synthesis. There is no policy that states that only certain portions of a study are allowed. A summary should be a basis but if it is unclear this should be fixed. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- When you pick and choose what parts of a source to include, and what parts to exclude, that is synthesis. Using generally accepted summary sections of a source as a basis for content is the straightforward way to approach the issue. Comparing the content that you inserted with the lay summary above, there is a clear disconnect indicating POV issues with what you added. Instead of advocating for highlighting whatever portions of the review that you are most interested in promoting, I suggest you start from scratch with the lay summary. aprock (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- No such rule. If something is unclear it should be clarified. Acadēmica Orientālis (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
- If those details are not mentioned in the lay summary, they don't need to be in wikipedia. aprock (talk) 21:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Section on charity in Jewish tradition lacks citations, omits reference to Psalm 72
The section on welfare in the Jewish tradition lack citations, and it omits reference to Psalm 72. I find it uncontroversial that Jewish tradition encouraged voluntary charity. But Psalm 72 indicates too a tradition of public charity. Specifically, it prays for Solomon in his conduct as king to "defend the afflicted," "save the children of the needy," to "deliver the needy who cry out," to "take pity on the weak and the needy," and to "save the needy from death."
This prayer illuminates understanding of charity's full role in the Jewish tradition, at least according to Jewish scripture. Omitting reference to Psalm 72 therefore creates a false impression that Jewish tradition supported only voluntary charity. Given the importance of Jewish tradition in contemporary American debate over the role of the state, the omission also calls into question the neutrality of this section. The lack of citation makes it doubly suspect.
I will leave this up here for a day or two to invite further discussion. If none proceeds, I will amend the paragraph by deleting all uncited material, and replacing it with a brief section on Psalm 72. If discussion proceeds, I will take it into account before making any changes. Though I don't see how a discussion of charity in the Jewish tradition is complete without mention of Psalm 72.
Note: when I've discussed the concept of "public charity" in the past, certain ideologues have harped on the meaning of "charity," and whether the concept of "public charity" can exist. Let me pre-emptively settle that discussion with reference to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary. In pertinent parts, Merriam-Webster defines charity as "an institution engaged in relief of the poor," and "public provision for the relief of the needy." State provision for the poor is "charity" within the word's ordinary meaning.
64.251.145.68 (talk) 17:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)Dan
Two days I ago I called for discussion on charity in the Jewish tradition. The post I wrote is immediately above this one. It called for a citation for the information presently in the article, and for discussion of Psalm 72. At that time I said I would make edits if no citation for the existing material issued. At this time, neither citation nor discussion have come. I will therefore delete the current section, and begin thinking about ways to write a new section on Psalm 72. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.145.68 (talk) 23:47, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Please honor the many #REDIRECT [[]] and links to this article.
At this moment, there are 33 redirects to this article: http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/rdcheck.py?page=Welfare. This means care has to be taken that any reader who follows one of those redirects, find sufficient text and links to enable the reader to find the information the reader is seeking. Lentower (talk) 06:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes I now see that a WP:move would be the best way to do what I tried to do. Thanks.84.250.230.158 (talk) 09:27, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Many of those articles that redirect to welfare are really not appropriately directed even now. I suspect that many of the redirects date back to when this was a disambiguation page or when this article redirected to social welfare. Social welfare for instance would include the services of social workers, a whole range of health services provided in countries such as Canada, UK, the Nordic countries which are run for the community by the community, and even the work of charities and churches. In no way is Welfare as it is now written an appropriate redirect for articles such as social welfare. 84.250.230.158 (talk) 16:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Links to this title "Welfare" need to honored too. For example, Template:Economics_sidebar which is a major sidebar on WP.
- By honored, I mean each link and REDIRECT[[]] has to be looked at, and either kept as is, or pointed to a different article, according to WP's guidelines. Lentower (talk) 15:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Quite a large number of the redirects are wrong. I started out by looking at the articles which link to welfare currently to see whether they were doing so with primarily with the main meaning of "wellbeing" (Meaning 1) or terms clearly linked to that meaning, or whether they were linking from a meaning fundamentally linked to the U.S. American meaning of "social support" (Meaning 2). In doing this I came across some very dubious redirects.
I started making a list of how and where the links to welfare come from. I did this by going to the page http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere and entering Welfare. I took the first two entries from the list (which is very long) and then analyzed them so see whether the meaning is fundamentally from Meaning 1 (well-being) or Meaning 2 (government aid). I stopped after the first 17 or so articles because a clear pattern was emerging.
Here is the finding
- Direct Links
- Direct Links to welfare with the meaning 1 of "well-being"
- Direct Links to Welfare with meaning 2 of "social assistance"
- Felony (United States section of the article) Note: Felony is primarily a U.S. English term
- George H. W. Bush - a reference to welfare as "government programs" in an U.S. article about a U.S. topic
- Indirect Links (i.e. originally linked to another primary article which is now itself being redirected to Welfare
- Articles linked to social welfare (=social measures to assure well-being and wrongly being redirected to Welfare
- Articles linked to welfare economics (=techniques in economics to evaluate economic well-beingand misleadingly being redirected to Welfare via other links
- Economics
- Gross domestic product (article also uses welfare unlinked as meaning 1)
- Links coming only from use of the Economics sidebar which has links to both Welfare economics (meaning 1) and welfare (meaning ambiguous)
- Adaptive expectations
- Capitalism
- Econometrics
- Game theory
- Keynesian economics
- Labour economics (article also has welfare used twice unlinked. One with meaning 1 and the second with meaning 2
- Microeconomics (article also has welfare used unlinked with Meaning 1 ("optimal welfare" as a behavior driver)
- Monopolistic competition
- Articles originally linked to social assistance (the term used in the citation) but which now redirects to Welfare
A lot of the links here are coming from the economics sidebar and that uses links to both welfare economics (which is not about government aid) and the plain term welfare which is ambiguous. The fact that welfare is often used unlinked and with both meaning 1 and meaning 2 just re-iterates what we have been told . the term welfare on its own is completely ambiguous. You need context to understand its meaning. Interesting also to note that the list above (random selected as the top articles linking to welfare from the toolserve program) demonstrates that it was American articles that refer to welfare (as a single word term) as meaning social programs whereas the others all relate to terms which merely include the word "welfare" (and seem to have largely roots back to welfare as "well-being" Hence, the article welfare really ought to be a disambiguation page once again so that people getting linked to it can choose the meaning the best fits the circumstance in the text where the link came from. 84.250.230.158 (talk) 15:48, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the research, but it's pre-mature as there is no consensus yet that the title, etc. will be changed.
- Granted your POV, it would also have to be carefully checked. Lentower (talk) 16:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just doing that myself. Here was how I compiled the list. Searched for links to Welfare. Took the first 17 items and reached the article for uses of the word Welfare and for the link that gets directed to the article "welfare". Welfare Economics is a good example. The article is not talking about welfare as a social program at all but economic well-being. It makes tons on references to social welfare (=social wellbeing) but that article now redirects to welfare which mostly talks about social programs and not well-being, which is not the same thing at all.84.250.230.158 (talk) 16:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with those who consider that the current article is based on the US conceptual systems and does not adequately cover the situation and concepts used in the EU countries. I consider also that defining welfare (even in the US context) as the provision of a minimal level of well-being is unnecessarily normative and it would be possible to refer to more neutral definitions. The sidebar on Economics is fully appropriate for the article on Welfare economics, but the arguments for retaining it here are not convincing. While the concept of welfare is indeed used in welfare economics, its is equally used in social policy discourse (welfare benefits) as well as political science and sociology discourses (welfare state) etc. Hence reference to economics alone without equal reference to other disciplines where the concept is used distorts a neutral view on the concept.
- I agree also with those who consider that there shall be a separate article on social assistance, which is not merged/redirected to welfare. The concept of "social assistance" has at least some content not covered by the current article. For example, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union Article 34(3) refers to the right to social assistance in the following meaning: "In order to combat social exclusion and poverty, the Union recognises and respects the right to social and housing assistance so as to ensure a decent existence for all those who lack sufficient resources, in accordance with the rules laid down by Community law and national laws and practices." The concept of social assistance appears in a number of legal acts of the European Union and on several occasions the Court of Justice of the European Union has interpreted its meaning. European Social Charter Article 13 stipulates the right to social and medical assistance, whereby states undertake: "to ensure that any person who is without adequate resources and who is unable to secure such resources either by his own efforts or from other sources, in particular by benefits under a social security scheme, be granted adequate assistance, and, in case of sickness, the care necessitated by his condition." ESSPROS (The European System of integrated Social PROtection Statistics) 2012 Manual [2] considers social assistance as part of social protection separate from social security, while Appendix V lists (among others) various social assistance schemes in the EU Member States.
- None of the above is adequately covered by the current article on welfare and it appears inappropriate to add it there as Wikipedia shall not alter the conceptual systems used by significant actors (like the EU) and "translate" those concepts into its own (or rather the US) concepts. If that were the case, a group of Wikipedia editors/administrators would effectively attempt to place themselves higher than a union of 28 European states.
- Hence my proposal is to recreate an article on social assistance. It would still be possible to make cross-references (with See also) between welfare and social assistance. --VillaK (talk) 07:12, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Should not be Economics
This article talks about welfar not as a subfield of Economics. The sidebar of Economics should be removed.218.253.55.162 (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- i would say that welfare is part of economics11:52, 30 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.172.96.95 (talk)
- This is your personal point of view, while the burden of proof is on you to show that it is a neutral perspective, which is a Wikipedia requirement. While it cannot be questioned that the concept of welfare is used in welfare economics, its is equally used in social policy discourse (e.g. welfare benefits) as well as in political science and sociology discourses (e.g. welfare state). Hence reference to economics alone without equal reference to other disciplines where the concept is used distorts a neutral perspective on the concept.--VillaK (talk) 06:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
NOTE: This could be solved by creating two different articles: one for "welfare" as used in social policy (welfare state, to be on welfare) and one for "welfare" as used in economic theory (welfare economics, measuring welfare, welfare versus wealth, etc.). That could clarify things (disambiguation).
Welfare vs Charity
I think it's an important distinction that money given voluntarily to a charitable organization is far different that money being taken from you with the threat of violence. I think the reference to the Catholic Church needs to be removed from this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frontier teg (talk • contribs) 18:43, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Forbes magazine source
'In a 2011 article, Forbes reported, "The best estimate of the cost of the 185 federal means tested Welfare programs for 2010 for the federal government alone is nearly $700 billion, up a third since 2008, according to the Heritage Foundation. Counting state spending, total Welfare spending for 2010 reached nearly $900 billion, up nearly one-fourth since 2008 (24.3%)".[27]'
The source cannot be found on the website, and I'd question Forbes' magazines trustworthiness on issues like this to be honest. Forbes is a magazine by bourgeois for bourgeois. I even bet the article was a column, because these are giant, ridiculously high numbers that right wingers always like to wave around without checking whether it's true or not. So I'm nominating this sentence for removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.3.240 (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
- Forbes quoting the Heritage Foundation, a highly POV right-wing source, is plenty suspect, but the figure seems generally about right. Be——Critical 16:44, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Entitlement versus welfare
In this article, welfare is defined as "Welfare is a government's support for the poor citizens," but then includes Social Security, which may in fact be government support for rich citizens. I'm looking at other articles like Basic income, which define BI, as a "welfare" program. The problem is, BI and SS are not exclusive to the poor, but welfare is defined as "support for the poor citizens." Any help on solving this conundrum would be appreciated. In the context of entitlement programs such as BI and SS, calling them welfare creates a POV, as many people are biased against welfare, while at the same time feeling positive toward entitlement programs. Be——Critical 04:06, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Edited to avoid contradictions. Be ⊢ Critical 18:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Welfare Check
Currently "welfare check" redirects here, but I think a welfare check usually means the police checking on a person's well-being, i.e. something quite different from Government welfare. A disambiguation page might be needed to resolve the double meaning w.r.t the other kind of "welfare check" (cheque)? Olaf Klischat (talk) 17:15, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Redirects (Public Support, Social Support, Public Aid, Welfare, Fundraising)
(The following text was posted at the Public Support Talk Page. It has relevancy here, too.)
Question, should "public support" be redirecting into "fundraising"?
"Social support" makes a mention (in the text) some people associate the meaning with "public aid". "Public aid" redirects over to "welfare".
Maybe "public support" needs a disambiguation page that offers directory over to: fundraising, social support, public aid and welfare. (maybe a few others, too)
My opinion is 'public support' is not answered by a redirect over to fundraising. In that same vein, we've got some other redirects that aren't fully addressing people's inquiries. Roxanne-snowden (talk) 16:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC) Please send me an FYI on my talk page if you respond here, ty.
RfC: Welfare (Payments) vs Social Security (Payments)
I'm a bit lost here as to where the articles Welfare and Social security differ. The leads of both articles describe their subject as payments to those with little or no income for the purpose of subsidising/paying for/assisting with basic human needs. Even in this article, the terms "welfare" and "social security" are thrown around as synonyms for each other. When you strip down the topics to their core subject, surely welfare and social security are one and the same? If not, there needs to be serious work done on both, as they are indistinguishable right now. I also think it's worth considering the influence of americentric bias in these topics; they seem to focus quite heavily on only the US' system of welfare (or lack thereof), and truly, don't fairly or equally explore other countries where welfare is significantly more important. Even the term "social security" points to the United States - In Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and many many many more countries, it's called welfare, Germany and parts of Europe calls it social care, the UK calls it state welfare. You can even see on this Google Trends map that "social security" is almost exclusively American: https://ibb.co/zSxrBHq. ItsPugle (talk) 11:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Americans and the formal use of Social Security
- This isn't an defense against the observation that there is American referential dominance on many topics, as that is a true assessment. I just wrote something below called "To Answer Question About American "Social Security" (Aug/1/2020)". It answers the question about social security (as a concept) and Social Security (as in a U.S. Federal program/benefits). When Americans say "social security", they mean "Social Security" (whole or in part). The principal Social Security is a social insurance program, not a welfare. We have long names like "Old-Age (Retirement), Survivors, and Disability Insurance OASDI" (often called "Social Security Disability Insurance", "Social Security Benefits", "Social Security Income", etc), "Temporary Assistance for Needy Families TANF" (our replacement program for "welfare" or "welfare-reform"), and "Supplemental Security Income SSI" (often called "Social Security Income", "Disability Benefits", "SSI", "Social Security Benefits"), etc.
- If you'll notice, the public aid and the social insurance programs under the Social Security moniker get referred to the same way, which can get confusing. Americans will use words like "welfare" or "assistance" (public, general, needs-based) to discuss public aid benefits. "Social Security" is mainly used as a formal name. It may surprise some Americans other countries would use "social security" as a generic term like social care or state welfare.
- We have formalBold text names like Social Security cards, Social Security numbers, Social Security Act, Social Security Office, Social Security Benefits, Social Security Income (also Supplemental Security Income), Social Security Retirement Insurance, etc.
- I wonder when other countries began to use the phrase "social security", as the use is primarily American. Refer to: What is the origin of the term "Social Security?" from the U.S. Social Security Administration website. During the mid-1930s, had been working on a "Economic Security" plan. They changed the name to "Social Security" along the way, in what even the SSA historian is uncertain other than to name the meeting in which it happened. The origin of the term does appear to be wholly American, making the American-bias entirely reasonable, since we have so many things named 'Social Security'.
And, as a bit of a side note, where exactly does Unemployment benefits come into this? Surely Unemployment benefits is so closely tied to welfare payments that they're indistinguishable for the most part. ItsPugle (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Unemployment Insurance is insurance, not welfare.
- Unemployment insurance keyword is "insurance". Insurance isn't "aid" or "assistance". It is not welfare. Insurance is a scheme in which people pool money together to help offset financial losses of individuals. As a principle of insurance, there needs to be more people paying "premiums" than those eligible are receiving benefits. In most countries, there is some form of private insurance, whether it be insurance for car, health, home, liability, life, travel, etc. (Government health insurance can be a misnomer, as can unemployment insurance.)
- Some points about insurance:
- - With governmental insurance schemes, the insurance program cannot go insolvent (usually). Private insurance programs must be careful to ensure that they hedge their risk to avoid paying out more than they receive. An insurance program may restrict access or raise premiums. When it is the government, that may not be an option, and the government will fund any resulting liabilities. There may also be an assistance program where the government pays the premiums on behalf of needy individuals that cannot afford to. These factors can make a social insurance program seem like 'welfare' when its actually a supplemental support program.
- - Welfare are government payments to support the basic care of needy individuals. Welfare is a needs-based program, usually requiring people to be in poverty in order to receive assistance.
- - Generally, insurance programs do not restrict eligibility based on someone's income.
- - Insurance requires participation in order to receive access to benefits when eligible. Government insurance programs may mandate participation through taxes to directly pay the premiums. Welfare eligibility does not depend on paying into a program beforehand.
- Unemployment insurance (UI) schemes are not just run by governments. Worldwide, there are private insurance programs to cover the risk of when someone becomes unemployed. People may receive unemployment benefits due to job loss from illness, accidents, disability, etc.
- Welfare payments are not limited to a specific time-frame, they are need-based. The reasons why someone is poor usually will not influence receipt of the pubic aid. Unemployment insurance will have a certain conditions, usually that the job loss is not due to the fault of the employee. There usually is a short-time frame to receive payments, with the expectation the person is seeking work. Insurance benefit will be received regardless of the financial status of the recipient. Welfare and Unemployment insurance usually won't be paid concurrently.
- In the United States, UI is not a federal insurance program and is operated in each of the state's differently. It is often operated alongside state disability insurance (short-term disability). In most cases, employers will pay for the unemployment and the employees will pay for the disability insurance. The disability insurance is for income losses due to severe illness/accident and paid only while someone cannot work due to their condition. Confusion with permanent disability programs, like Veteran's Assistance and Supplemental Security Income, can create a confusion that the UI/DI is a welfare benefit.
- In Australia, unemployment insurance is known as "redundancy insurance" (looks like it is a private, supplemental insurance). In German, it is called "Arbeitslosenversicherung" and is part of a governmental social insurance program (compulsory). In Japan, it is one part of a government "Labour insurance" scheme that combines unemployment with workers accident insurance called "roudou hoken".
- In some countries, there are socialized benefits to people who are not employed for different reasons. Payments could go to those unemployed because of parenting, youth, school, or special status. Other countries may make a distinction that unemployment insurance/benefits must be to recent job loss due to no-fault reasons, excluding disability or accidents. Short-term and long-term disability insurance can be both public and privately operated and issued in lieu to UI.
- The proper response is that unemployment insurance (benefits) cannot be grouped as welfare, worldwide. Roxanne-snowden (talk) 19:49, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- I'm a bit concerned that this RFC is outside the guidelines. What exactly is the question? If this is a merge proposal then see WP:RFCNOT. Jschnur (talk) 22:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hahaha, this isn't a merge proposal, simply a feeler in terms of helping to guide the development of these two articles and make their difference, if there is any, more clear. For a merge request though, see the below :) ItsPugle (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- To Answer Question About American "Social Security" (Aug/1/2020)
- The American use of the "Social Security" relates to our Social Security Administration SSA programs. The principal program is our retirement benefits, which is designed as a social insurance scheme (along with the retirement healthcare Medicare). This makes it an entitlement, as people pay into a required system with the promise that they will be reimbursed with benefits at a later date (regardless of financial need). For this reasons, "Social Security and Medicare" will often be paired together. Employers and Employees in the U.S. will pay a specific tax (OASDI) as an "insurance premium" on all income. At retirement age, the Social Security Administration will issue "Social Security benefits" - i.e. retirement income and medical benefits. If long-term disabled, the retirement benefits can be petitioned early, known as "Social Security Disability Benefits" called SSDI. These are not welfare or public aid.
- If ineligible for the above programs, the permanently disabled or aged can apply for "Social Security Benefits". One program is the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) which is often referred to as "Social Security Income (or Insurance)". This is a welfare, need-based program. It has a companion health insurance called Medicaid.
- Employers and Employees payments into OASDI and Medicare for future access (insurance) to these benefits. Through the income taxes, the public aid programs like Medicaid and (Social Security) Supplement Security Income (SSI) will be funded but distributed under Social Security.
- The SSA also has numerous other public aid programs that it manages. These welfare programs will generally be referred to by their names, or referred to as "public assistance", "welfare", "needs-based assistance" or "general assistance" (keyword = assistance rather than security). Those programs do not use, or generally regarded by the term Social Security (but may be referred to it in context of the Social Security Administration.
- The method that tracks a person's payment into the "Social Security System" is the Social Security Number (Card). Over time, the assigned number is an identification method.
- The basic idea is that Americans are not generally referring to "public aid" as "social security". "Social Security" is specific to our programs named or operated under the Social Security office. Americans aren't being philosophical when they say "social security", and they are not using it as synonymous with the term 'welfare'.
- Suggested reading is above reply to ItsPugle discussing the term 'social security', including the history of the name in reply "Americans and the formal use of Social Security" (Updated) Roxanne-snowden (talk) 16:54, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Merge with Social security
Already merged by various uninvolved editors; assumed consensus as a result. Thanks for your contributions! (non-admin closure) ItsPugle (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm proposing merging Social security into Welfare (following on from the discussion started above by ItsPugle). As noted in the article already, "social security" can refer to a variety of things but is generally interchangeable with or a subset of welfare, except in the United States where it's a separate but related system which has its own article already. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 11:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support. They're synonymous, there's no fair reason to have two articles. ItsPugle (talk) 12:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Support. While not always identical the terms are often synonymous and there is a large overlap when they aren't. Thryduulf (talk) 12:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose Welfare and Social security is not the same thing. The words are of Germanic origin and should be read literally. Welfare comes from "well fare" and means to "fare well." That is, to live a good life. A Welfare state is thus a state in which the state is tasked with providing good lives for its citizens. Social security should also be read literally, protection against "social" threats. That's were the allegory of the Social safety net comes from. For example, insurance against unemployment and disability are forms of social security and is also welfare. But, say, subsidized summer camps for poor kids is welfare but not social security. ImTheIP (talk) 20:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
- With all respect for the etymology of the words "welfare" and "social security", the current articles describe indistinguishable 'programs' or systems of support for individuals. Welfare is also used interchangeably in conversation (or at least in my experience) and is used by government agencies interchangeably with "social security". While the linguistic roots may have difference, the words' modern applications are the same as far as I can see. ItsPugle (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.