Talk:Wedding of Albert II, Prince of Monaco, and Charlene Wittstock

Category

Why is Michelle Yeoh a sports personality and not a celebrity ?Eregli bob (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

She is listed as the partner of Jean Todt. - Yk³ talk ~ contrib 02:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Party?

Any word on when the bachelor party was? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.165.202 (talk) 03:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Spanish Royal Family

Why did the Spanish Royals snubbed Monaco by not sending any representatives? It's well known that Rainier III had close relations with king Juan Carlos and the Bourbons. Actually, Juan Carlos grandmother, queen Victoria Eugenie of Spain, was godmother to Prince Albert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.127.228.162 (talk) 16:20, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

King Juan Carlos & Queen Sofia were invited, but King Juan Carlos was recovering from a recent knee operation at the time and wasn't up for traveling. He was originally scheduled to attend, but pulled out at the last minute

References

Comic Figures as Guests?

This has got to be a joke, right? Or was it some strange video connection to Lois & Peter Griffin and Tigger? No, I don't think so... my bet would be on a joke/vandalism. red (talk) 13:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Titles of individuals from different countries

When English Wikipedia is listing royalty from different nations or dynasties in attendance at an event, it seems to me that the purpose is not to duplicate the format used in the guest list (which, if released to the general public, can be linked to so readers can see it for themselves) but to provide readers and history the information about who was present (or expected) at the event. In doing that, the styles in use at any one court (including the Court of St. James's) may at times be useful but Wikipedia is not bound to use them, since they often refer. e.g., to "The King" or "The Crown Princess", terms appropriate from the point of view of the court or country in which the event is held, but not appropriate for an international encyclopedia for whom "The Queen" applies equally to all persons so titled. Moreover, Spain, for instance, has two queens, Luxembourg two grand dukes, and every monarchy has multiple princes, princesses and dowagers. To distinguish them, their given names are essential -- otherwise as time goes by, one must search to figure out which "Princess of Orange", for example, was present -- an inconvenience to the reader easily eliminated by simply providing that person's usual given name or personal title. I'm not suggesting creating a novel, Wikipedia format for replacing styles used at monarchical courts -- which remain as applicable and appropriate at those courts as ever -- but that Wikipedia adhere to its overriding function of providing clear, complete and convenient information. To that end, guest lists of multi-national royalty and nobility should include a given name or personal locution which uniquely identifies the individual. And it should usually dispense with "the" (which shouldn't be capitalized either: since we don't do it for monarchs, why should we do it for their family members?) except on the rare occasions when that word is used to distinguish among persons who share the same title (e.g., "Present were both King Juan Carlos and his son Feliipe, the King of Spain" or "the Prince of Prussia" (a substantive title when used to refer to the Hohenzollerns' royal dynastic heir, but otherwise shared by all members of the dynasty), but "Firstname, Duke of X" because that crown princely dukedom is a substantive title and when provided with the individual titleholder's name (as I've argued it should be, on first reference), no further distinction is needed. Ditto for "Prince Givenname, Prince of X", a redundancy that is as uncustomary and unattractive as it is unnecessary. FactStraight (talk) 16:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I support the idea that we should strive to identify members of royal families a little more understandably than merely by their formal titles. Monarchs' Christian names are typically used with their titles in the press, and I think this could be extended to heads of deposed dynasties, like Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia or Prince Ernst August of Hanover. But there are important caveats to be made.

As far as British titles are concerned, the capitalized definite article makes the difference between a substantive title and a courtesy title. See The Countess of Wessex (wife of the current Earl) vs. Countess of St Andrews (whose husband is styled as an Earl merely by courtesy, as he hasn't inherited that title yet). Other members of the British royal family having only courtesy titles include the Queen's grandson, Viscount Severn, her nephew, Viscount Linley, and male heirs of royal dukes. The lack of definite article can also mean a change in marital status, as seen in the difference between 'The Princess of Wales' (such as she was until 1996) and 'Diana, Princess of Wales' (when she was no longer the wife of The Prince of Wales). And this last title proceeds to show why the first prince in the style 'Prince Willem-Alexander, The Prince of Orange' is not unnecessary to avoid possible confusion, and also it's true for a fact that Willem-Alexander was a Prince of the Netherlands even before he became The Prince of Orange, and further see the Belgian heir to the throne at the time, Prince Philippe, The Duke of Brabant, where his personal title (Prince) and the his heir to the throne title (Duke) were of different rank. Furthermore you inserted the title of 'Princess Edward' for The Countess of Wessex. If some title is uncustomary, than this is it. It is indeed part of her full official title, but no-one ever uses is (it's like referring to The Duchess of Cornwall as Princess of Wales which she technically is).

So in my opinion, in order to improve on clarity, we can insert the names of current sovereigns into their titles, as it is commonly done anyway (e.g. Grand Duke Henri of Luxembourg instead of The Grand Duke of Luxembourg). This way the distinction between abdicated and current monarchs will be lost in some cases (like King Juan Carlos of Spain and King Felipe VI of Spain), but it's not too big a price to pay for improving readability. And in some other cases people's titles change upon abdication or the death of their husband (e.g. after her abdication Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands became Princess Beatrix, upon her husband's abdication Queen Paola of the Belgians became Queen Paola of Belgium, upon her husband's death Queen Elizabeth became Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother).

For lesser (non-sovereign) royals we could insert their personal titles, if they have one (e.g. Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales, to distinguish him from past Princes of Wales). It should be noted that even this changes in some cases, one prominent example being the husband of Queen Elizabeth II, who from 1947 to 1957 was merely titled as The Duke of Edinburgh, and only received the title of Prince in 1957 (and thus became Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh). British princes' wives who were not born royal (e.g. Catherine, Camilla, Sophie) have no suo jure personal titles, they are princesses only by virtue of, and for the duration of marriage (so there is no Princess Kate, and strictly speaking there was no Princess Diana). They should be mentioned by their official title only (as The Duchess of Cambridge, The Duchess of Cornwall and The Countess of Wessex), because the style Sophie, Countess of Wessex would imply that she has divorced from the Earl of Wessex (that's exactly why Prince Andrew's ex-wife is titled as Sarah, Duchess of York). But this rule is not necessarily true for other countries. Please note that Queen Mathilde of the Belgians was created a princess in her own right, therefore she was legally Princess Mathilde and Duchess of Brabant before her husband acceded to the throne. ZBukov (talk) 16:20, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed about using given names for both reigning and formerly reigning monarchs and their consorts. Your point is also well-taken about the usage of, e.g., "and the Countess of Wessex" or "and the Duchess of Cambridge" in lieu of a given name or prefix+own name for a royal's spouse where the given name ceased being used after marriage, but where does that now happen except in the UK? Further exceptions for Wikipedia to accommodate English Court of St. James's customs are neither appropriate nor needed, such as use of "the" (and definitely not "The") for obviously substantive titles such as dukedoms and earldoms when we don't accord that article to the monarchs whenever their given names are included: the distinctions connoted by "The" matter little in lists and contexts enumerating international royalty, and are better clarified in Honorifics, Courtesy title, British peerage and individual bios. Stylistically, redundant titles (e.g., "Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales", Prince Emanuele Filiberto, Prince of Venice and Piedmont") are confusing, ungainly, unnecessary, excessively deferential and usually dispensed with anyway (there isn't a single royal whose normal style included both "Prinz" and "Fürst"), and I strenuously object to the duplicate usage, especially inasmuch as they are so rare in today's monarchies, i.e. Charles, Prince of Wales, Catharina-Amalia, Princess of Orange and Leonor, Princess of Asturias. (Replicating this discussion at Talk:NCRAN where it probably now belongs.) FactStraight (talk)

You said that earldoms are "obviously substantive titles". That’s not true. Both Earl of St Andrews (borne by the heir of Prince Edward, The Duke of Kent) and Earl of Ulster (borne by the heir of Prince Richard, The Duke of Gloucester) are courtesy titles.

You also said that "there isn't a single royal whose normal style included both »Prinz« and »Fürst«”. That’s not true either. See Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh (after 1957). (By using German names for titles, I presume that you didn't mean to limit the scope of your comment language-wise, since today there is only one German-speaking monarchy, Liechtenstein - regarding them, your statement IS true.)

In order to get rid of „redundant titles” you want royals listed without their personal titles (e.g. Catharina-Amalia, Princess of Orange). Unfortunately that is exactly the format used for divorced former royals (see Sarah, Duchess of York and Diana, Princess of Wales). So by removing what you consider “confusing”, you would actually mix up two radically distinct kinds of people (former and current royals).

You further claimed that having both personal titles and territorial titles is rare. That’s not true either. The majority of European crown princes / crown princesses (6 out of the 10) are like that. 8 members of the British, 8 members of the Swedish, 5 members of the Spanish and 2 members of the Monegasque royal family has some other title apart from being Prince or Princess. Let me know if you want the list.

I don’t know whether the capitalized definite article is used in continental royal families, or if it makes a difference there, so I wouldn't object to the removal of the definite article from the titles of non-British European royals. But anyhow, I don't see why we would have to force a uniform usage of titles on the royals of all those different countries. See the cases of Letizia, Mathilde and Máxima. When she married Prince Felipe, Letizia only got the female version of her husband’s title (The Princess of Asturias), and she was not created Princess (Infanta) Letizia. When Mathilde wed Prince Philippe, she was created Princess Mathilde, and became the Duchess of Brabant. When Máxima married Willem-Alexander, she only became Princess Máxima, but not Princess of Orange. ZBukov (talk) 18:56, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Beatrice Borromeo

Why is she listed seperately from Pierre Casiraghi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.100.251.67 (talk) 13:42, 9 July 2020 (UTC)