Talk:Wall Street (1987 film)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Wall Street (1987 film). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Requested move

Needs to be moved in line with standard Wikipedia naming conventions, but Wall Street (film) already exists as a redirect page to Wall Street (movie). CLW 08:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Support as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films) CLW 08:41, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Support per nom.—jiy (talk) 08:45, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

I've moved this page per the discussion. —Cleared as filed. 02:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Greed Is Good redirects here

The article's AFD debate reached consensus that the article should redirect here. Johnleemk | Talk 02:49, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article is a a bit of mess and I think it should be marked for clean-up to bring it up to the standards of other film entries. Separating the two movies should be a priority as well. - Fearfulsymmetry 04:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

OR/lack of sources

The article has no sources to back any of the opinions and interpretations, and the commentary is entirely original research, especially the part about Bud Fox and the SEC. Malakaville 05:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Title of nobility

Removed this

The rival of Gordon Gekko in the film is Sir Larry Wildman played by Terence Stamp. In the beginning of the film, Gekko tells Bud that Larry has recently received his U.S. citizenship. However, as his name implies, Sir Larry has been knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. One of the requirements of becoming an American citizen is to renounce all noble titles (see 8 USC 1448).^[1] Thus, it seems unlikely that Larry would have given up his knighthood in order to become an American citizen.

It is not inconceivable, however, that Sir Larry officially renounced the title but continues to use the phonetic anomaly "Sir" in front of his name, rationalising it (if rationalisation is necessary) as an American first name in the manner of "Duke" or "Earl".

8 USC 1448 requires a naturalized citizen to renounced hereditary titles or titles of nobility. However a knighthood is neither one of the two. A knighthood is generally not hereditary nor does it confer make one a noble (i.e. a knight can still be elected to the House of Commons).

Roadrunner 00:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

References

^ http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001448----000-.html

Fair use rationale for Image:Ggekko.jpg

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BetacommandBot 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV issue

His truncated catchphrase from the speech, "Greed is good," came to symbolise what some describe as the ruthless, profit-obsessed, simplistic, Ayn Randish, short-term corporate "philosphy" of the 1980s and 1990s and by extension became associated with unrestrained liberistic, Chicago-school economic policies.

This paragraph seems very non-NPOV. The emotionally loaded words (e.g "profit-obssessed" should be something like "profit-centered" or "profit-driven" that doesn't imply a moral judgement) and the irony quotes should be replaced. The assertion that the speech is connected with either Ayn Rand (what does 'Ayn Randish' even mean?) or the Chicago school of economics also either needs to be sourced or removed.

The whole paragraph seems primarily intended to take a cheap shot at various political views that aren't explicitly related to the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.76.85.26 (talk) 02:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of insider trading

At one time, sections of this article had a discussion of what Bud and Gordon did, and why it was illegal. Can this be brought back into the article?

DarkStarHarry (talk) 22:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

References in popular culture

I'm moving this unsourced list from the article and storing it here until it can be cited and integrated into various sections in the article.--J.D. (talk) 20:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

1993's Hot Shots! Part Deux had a scene where Charlie Sheen was seen on a boat going up a river, writing a letter as we heard his voiceover narration from Platoon. In further acknowledgement of that, another boat passes in the opposite direction with Martin Sheen himself reciting his narration from Apocalypse Now. As the craft pass, father and son simultaneously shout at each other, "I loved you in Wall Street!"

In the 2000 film Boiler Room, some of the young stockbrokers in that film are shown watching Wall Street on video. During the scene where Bud goes to Gekko's office for the first time and listens as he converses on the phone about the CEO of a company he is considering taking over, they turn down the volume and recite his lines ("Their quarterlies are for shit! ... If this guy owned a funeral parlor, nobody would die!!!") in unison.

Future Stock, an episode of the animated television series Futurama, takes much of its inspiration from Wall Street.^{[citation needed]}

In a 2005-06 episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent, a Professor tells Detectives Goren and Eames his alibi saying that he was screening Wall Street for his class in business ethics.

In the famous British sitcom Only Fools And Horses, main character Del Boy revamps his image and bases himself on Gordon Gekko at the start of series 6. ^{[citation needed]}

In an episode of The Sarah Silverman Program there is a scene in which a young girl recites Gordon Gekko's famous "Greed is Good" scene.

In the PC game Warcraft III, typing the cheat "greedisgood X" will give you Gold and Lumber equivalent to the value of X

In another PC game Fallout 2, a ghoul NPC called Gordon can be found in the town called Gecko, and he talks about greed, and how good it is.

In the Wario World GameCube commercial, the "Greed is Good" theme is parodied.

In the television serial Chuck in the episode Chuck vs. the Sandworm, the character Morgan is addressed by the phrase, "Hey you in the Gordon Gekko costume."

Fair use rationale for Image:Wall street.jpg

Image:Wall street.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Original cut

Where are the sources for the information in this section? Is it all contained in extras on a DVD release?

I'm curious about this too: where on Earth does this information come from? Presumably there is a copy of this uncut version _somewhere_? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.89.221 (talk) 20:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. I've moved it to here until someone can source all of this info properly.--J.D. (talk) 18:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The first version of the film had a 160-minute running time, as opposed to 120 minutes for the theatrical release.

Most of the 40 minutes cut involved a subplot in which Bud has an affair with Gekko's wife, Kate (Sean Young). As a result, Young's appearance in the film is greatly diminished.

Other deleted scenes explain that Darien began her career as a call girl, the basis for Carl Fox telling off his son with "I don't go to bed with no whore, and I don't wake up with no whore," and the umbrage Bud takes at it. Yet another makes clear how Bud can become president of Bluestar without giving up his position at the brokerage firm, something that seems highly implausible in the final cut.

Penn Jillette originally had a role as a stock trader, but was cut out. He claimed on his radio show, Penn Radio, (04-14-06) that he believed at first it was because the film had run long, but looking back, he felt his performance was probably just inadequate. He also said that he did not get along with Stone.

Penn Jillette's scenes are included in the DVD's deleted scenes. Daniel Case (talk) 18:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What about the other deleted scenes? Specifically the ones about the affair and Darien's previous calling? This information cannot have come out of thin air, was this *ever* released on DVD/VHS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.89.245 (talk) 08:39, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

October 2008 link to update on sequel

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3195456/Michael-Douglass-Gordon-Gekko-to-return-to-Wall-Street-and-confront-credit-crisis.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.94.16.83 (talk) 16:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Themes and Errors sections

This sections contain a lot of original research without any citations and should be removed. Unless someone can include some footnotes for these sections I'm going to remove them from the main article and place them here.--J.D. (talk) 15:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The error entry about the film's setting in 1985 and the Challenger explosion in 1986 is NOT original research but is very definitely an anachronism. 68Kustom (talk) 03:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Themes

Conflicts

Wall Street defines itself through a number of morality conflicts putting wealth and power against simplicity and honesty.

Carl's (Martin Sheen's) character represents the working class in the film: he is the union leader for the maintenance workers at Bluestar. He constantly attacks big business, money, mandatory drug screening and greedy manufacturers and anything that he sees as a threat to his union. The conflict between Gekko's relentless pursuit of wealth and Carl Fox's leftward leanings form the basis of the film's subtext. This subtext could be described as the concept of the two fathers battling for control over the morals of the son, a concept Stone had also used in Platoon.

In Wall Street the hard-working Carl Fox and the cutthroat businessman Gordon Gekko represent the fathers. The producers of the film use Carl as their voice in the film, a voice of reason amid the creative destruction brought about by Gekko's unrestrained free-market philosophy.

'Greed is Good'

Arguably the most memorable scene in the film is a speech by Gekko to a shareholders' meeting of Teldar Paper, a company he is planning to take over. Stone uses this scene to give Gekko, and by extension, the Wall Street raiders he personifies, the chance to justify their actions, which he memorably does, pointing out the slothfulness and waste that corporate America accumulated through the postwar years and from which he sees himself as a "liberator":

The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that: Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right; greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge — has marked the upward surge of mankind and greed, you mark my words — will not only save Teldar Paper but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

The inspiration for the "Greed is good" speech seems to have come from two sources. The first part, where Gekko complains that the company's management owns less than three percent of its stock, and that it has too many vice presidents, is taken from similar speeches and comments made by Carl Icahn about companies he was trying to take over. The defense of greed is a paraphrase of the May 18, 1986 commencement address at the UC Berkeley's School of Business Administration, delivered by arbitrageur Ivan Boesky (who himself was later convicted of insider-trading charges), in which he said, "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself."

Ultimately the "Greed is Good" speech could be seen as related to what Adam Smith concluded about human nature. Smith believed that, in general, honest people freed to pursue their own interest would fare better than they would under a system that dictated what was "good." In the process, persons pursuing their own interests would eliminate inefficiencies and allocate commodities where they would benefit the greater society.

Wall Street is not a wholesale criticism of the capitalist system, but of the cynical, quick-buck culture of the 1980s. The 'good' characters in the film are themselves capitalists, but in a more steady, hardworking sense. In one scene, Gekko scoffs at Bud Fox's question as to the moral value of hard work, quoting the example of his (Gekko's) father, who worked hard his entire life and died in relative mediocrity. Fox's stockbroker boss (played by Hal Holbrook) as an archetype old man mentor, says early in the film, that "good things sometimes take time", referring to IBM and Hilton - in contrast, Gekko's 'Greed is Good' credo typifies the short-term view prevalent in the 80s.

Errors

Anachronism

In the first shot of the film, showing the large expanse of a trading floor, the year is noted as 1985. Moments later a character (played by John C. McGinley) comments sarcastically on how a broker (Gekko) had shorted NASA stock 30 seconds after the Challenger exploded. The Space Shuttle Challenger exploded in January, 1986, after the events of the beginning of the film. Stone later explained that the "1985" title at the beginning was added after production was finished, to locate the film in a time before the mid-1980s insider-trading scandals began to break. However, when Bud checks his computer's date book on the day he meets Gekko, the year is again given as 1985.

In any case, the character was clearly making a joke: NASA is a governmental agency and not a publicly traded company.

Economics

At one point Gekko is giving a speech during which he says, "Money cannot be created or destroyed", which is not necessarily correct since money can be created through the deposit credit multiplier effect. Gekko followed by stating that the money was simply transferred from one perception to another. The stock market is also not necessarily a "zero-sum" game. Gekko's "zero-sum" assertion ignores one of the largest drivers of wealth creation, which is increased capital or labor productivity. However, it seems likely that the statement was merely a reflection of Gekko's belief in a competitive capitalistic environment where his challenge is no longer in making himself wealthy but in defeating his rivals.

Miscellaneous

In the film's final shot, Bud is shown walking up the steps of the state court building in Foley Square to his sentencing. Insider trading is a federal charge, the investigators chasing after him have been from the federal SEC, and thus he should be going into the adjacent federal court building.

Moved these sections to this page because they are unsourced and original research. --J.D. (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What exactly did Bud Fox do that could have been proved illegal?

Just wondering, because the film never quite tells you what he did illegal, just implied what he did was it, with few specifics.Tallicfan20 (talk) 06:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

For starters the talk page is for editors to discuss the article rather than the subject itself. Charlie Sheen's character, Bud Fox, is arrested for violating federal securities laws. particularly insider trading. By watching the film you'll see him obtain information from his father about the small airline, Bluestar, trading information with his lawyer friend, played by James Spader, stealing information while working as a night janitor, among a plethora of other crimes. Ka'Jong (Ka'Talk) 13:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC).

Cited by Cardinal Bertone

I'm not sure this is entirely relevant, but it may be interesting for some to know that the Holy See's Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone recently mentioned the movie as a way to criticize the free market ideology, and its tendency to claim that greed is good, like what Gekko says in the film. [1] ADM (talk) 14:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Wall Street fashion

While this is fascinating stuff, it has not been sourced so I'm placing it here until proper citations can be found and implemented.--J.D. (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Not only did Wall Street affect career decisions for many young Americans, the movie also had a major impact on fashion trends for several years following the blockbuster release. Designed for domination, the apparel worn by Gordon Gekko inspired several American and European designers to grant the public with the means to dress for success. Alan Flusser, prolific costume director for the movie, took to Mel Gambert for chief production of Gordon Gekko's fashions. Mel Gambert created what is today widely known as "The Gekko", a tailored men's horizontal black and white dress shirt worn within the film by Gordon Gekko.

Rating

Added 1987 Movie's Rating. please add rating for other. 198.234.216.67 16:06, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Ratings didn't exist in 1929. Samboy 05:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This film capsulised the 1980's... not the 1990's as stated in the article. A very simplistic plot that was carried by superior performances by THE YOUNG ACTORS/ACTRESSES involved. The role of Gordon Gecco portrayed by Micheal Douglas is,in a word, iconic. Charlie Sheen gave the best performance of his tumultuos career. Martin Sheen gave his usual rock-solid performance. Daryl Hannah was a brilliant temptress. This movie will forever be remebered becuase of it's accuracy relative to American society in 1987. It's an all-time classic in American film thanks to the director and the once-in-a-career performances that were delivered by the main characters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.29.31 (talk) 08:04, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Revert undiscussed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move page, per linked discussion. - GTBacchus^(talk) 21:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

This article was moved without discussion, and should be moved back to its original location, as it is clearly the main topic with films for this title. - BilCat (talk) 23:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Such a move is not in keeping with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films), which says to use years to disambiguate when multiple films have the same title. --Cybercobra (talk) 23:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:NCF; article is already disambiguated. Everyone, please see discussion here. Erik (talk) 20:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gordon Gecko or Gordon Gekko?

I see multiple spellings of the name, which is right? What is next, Gordon Geico? USN1977 (talk) 21:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

DVD says Gordon Gekko, as does the article. Those who spell it Gecko like the Geico mascot have not seen the film. 63.215.28.173 (talk) 05:09, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wall Street (1987 film)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: -- ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 17:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This article is in decent shape, but it needs more work before it becomes a Good Article.

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
In the Production and origins section, "After the success of Platoon" ---> "After the success of Platoon (1986)", so that it can provide context for the reader. In the Principal photography section, "...and to get the used to the fast rhythm of the film's dialogue", there's something odd with that sentence. There needs to be a consistency with "well received" and "well-received".
Fixed.--J.D. (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Check.

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
In the Plot section, "Gekko tells him he'll think about what Bud has told him" ---> "Gekko tells him he will think about what Bud has told him", per here. Same section, the hyphens needs to be dashes. Same section, since this is an American article, it'd be best that "rumours" be "rumors". In the Principal photography section, please link "breath control" to its correspondence article, as at the moment it stands out as a disambiguation. In the Themes section, "The defense of greed is a paraphrase of the May 18, 1986 commencement address" ---> "The defense of greed is a paraphrase of the May 18, 1986, commencement address", commas after dates, if using MDY. Same section, it would be best if "archetype" was linked just once. In the Reaction section, "Wall Street was released on December 11, 1987 in 730 theaters" ---> "Wall Street was released on December 11, 1987, in 730 theaters". Same section, in Jay Scott's review, the quote shouldn't have quotation marks within quotations, per here. Same section, "In the Reception section, the Owen Gleiberman review, the two hyphens should be changed to a spaced en-dash or unspace em-dash, for more on that go here.
Fixed.--J.D. (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Check.
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
You might want to update the link to Reference 20. In Ref. 27, "Kiplinger's personal finance" needs to be "Kiplinger's Personal Finance". Ref. 31 needs to be properly formatted like the other sources. Refs. 1, 5, 28, 29, and 37 have different url link paths, so you might want to update that. It seems as though Ref. 36 doesn't work.
Fixed. Altho, some refs' links looked OK, I did replace them with ones that were listed in the Checklinks. I did have one question: what does "High link to text ratio" mean? The link still works.--J.D. (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
Check, and I ended up updating a couple of the url links. I have no idea, I've been puzzled with a couple of Forbes links.

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:
If the statements above can be answered, I will pass the article. Good luck with improving this article!

-- ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 17:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to J.D. for getting the stuff I left at the talk page, because I have gone off and placed the article as GA. Congrats. ;) -- ThinkBlue (Hit BLUE) 17:59, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Anacott Steel

Could this company's name have been inspired by the similarly titled "d'Anconia Copper" from Atlas Shrugged, a book with similar themes (albeit different messages) to this movie? --2.102.54.175 (talk) 19:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Removed original research

An editor whose contributions appear to consist only of reverting other people's edits on film and music articles has been reverting mine here. I have removed a few sentences which were obviously original research. Saying where you think a film's inspiration "seems to" have come from is obviously not acceptable encyclopaedic content. If the film makers themselves say what inspired them, we can report that. In this case, no other source is adequate.

I note that in one of their reverts, the prolific reverter said "Restored again; the wording can be changed; a source can be found for the 2nd example". That is entirely inadequate as a reason to revert. Restoring bad content while saying it can be improved is absurd. You must either improve it in the ways that you claim are possible, or leave it out of the article. 95.145.130.114 (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Your comments on my editing history are ignorant and irrelevant.

I did improve the paragraph, providing a source for the quote, and you removed it anyway. So your reasoning is fallacious. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 01:19, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

The source was obviously not adequate. The wording was obviously not adequate. 95.145.130.114 (talk) 10:13, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

That's your opinion, which is irrelevant. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 12:39, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Wow, you're really immature. Wikipedia policy is what is relevant, and you are violating it by inserting your own original research into articles, and then edit warring over it. 95.145.130.114 (talk) 13:50, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

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Unsupported categories

Categories cannot be added that are not supported by the article. StewieGriffin1998, when the categories you added were reverted by Trivialist, you should not have reverted, you should have posted here on talk, explaining your reasons for adding them. Even better, you should find sources to support those cats, because, as Trivialist pointed out, the article does not support them. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 23:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

David Brown

The Principal Photograph section says that "Stone also consulted with Carl Icahn, Asher Edelman, convicted inside trader David Brown, several government prosecutors, and Wall Street investment bankers". The article on David Brown mentions nothing about this; I didn't realise he was a crook. Do you have the right David Brown? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

[1] ttp://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001448----000-.html

[1]